Just out of interest, was anyone taking seriously the inter-club competition on the individual day, as described on the SOA web site?
http://www.scottish-orienteering.org/soa/page/scottish-inter-club-championships-sicc-rules-and-guidelines
Despite languishing at home all weekend I was quite interested to see the outcome and am disappointed that the results are still to be published. I've spoken to the organizer and the results will be published at some stage, but they are yet to be worked out. Maybe if it's worth having a team event, it should be part of an event with NO individual prizes to distract anyone (least of all the organizers who might already have enough on their hands). Then everyone's focus can be 100% on the team game.
Scottish Championships 2017
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
Last edited by Sunlit Forres on Mon May 22, 2017 4:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- Sunlit Forres
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
Just to add that the intention is that this will hopefully form part of a review of the event calendar in the second half of this year.
So, to look forward rather than back, the sort of questions we will be asking the membership and the clubs are whether they are interested in some sort of interclub championship, would they travel to a standalone event, could it be combined with the CSC or another event, would a ranking system taking in SOLs, SOULs and championships be of interest, is it too much for organisers to add this on top of a stressful event, what are the practical problems - etcetera. But this is not just about one event, it is about how the calendar as a whole works, for runners, clubs and volunteers.
The intention is that such a review would find ways to hear from all types of orienteers in Scotland (Not just Nopesport )
So, to look forward rather than back, the sort of questions we will be asking the membership and the clubs are whether they are interested in some sort of interclub championship, would they travel to a standalone event, could it be combined with the CSC or another event, would a ranking system taking in SOLs, SOULs and championships be of interest, is it too much for organisers to add this on top of a stressful event, what are the practical problems - etcetera. But this is not just about one event, it is about how the calendar as a whole works, for runners, clubs and volunteers.
The intention is that such a review would find ways to hear from all types of orienteers in Scotland (Not just Nopesport )
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
Sunlit Forres wrote: the results are still to be published....
Just a guess, but:
FVO, ahead of MAROC, with ESOC, Interlopers and MOR not too far behind
RR ahead of BASOC in the small clubs
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
Thats interesting about the buckthorn thanks. I guess same goes for the rhoddies on Sunday. Short term pain for longer term benefit.
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
Rosine wrote:Just to add that the intention is that this will hopefully form part of a review of the event calendar in the second half of this year.
So, to look forward rather than back, the sort of questions we will be asking the membership and the clubs are whether they are interested in some sort of interclub championship, would they travel to a standalone event, could it be combined with the CSC or another event, would a ranking system taking in SOLs, SOULs and championships be of interest, is it too much for organisers to add this on top of a stressful event, what are the practical problems - etcetera. But this is not just about one event, it is about how the calendar as a whole works, for runners, clubs and volunteers.
The intention is that such a review would find ways to hear from all types of orienteers in Scotland (Not just Nopesport )
I know you said you would do this later, but I'm getting old and will have forgotten about this by later...
A few thoughts on the inter club champs
1 despite the best efforts I suspect virtually nobody had remembered this was on and also that it being on was not the reason for attending.
2 inter club competition= inclusive. Scottish champs = elitist. Maybe not the best fit. I think a lot of club members won't go to the champs but should feel that they can count for the club champs.
3 Looking at the results it was quite close but no way of telling this on the day. If you are really taking the event seriously I think electronic live results in competition are a must.
4 the long start window of the Scottish and lack of same day prize giving meant most people left after running (weather too of course) Need to find a way of keeping everyone to the end.
5 Scoring should find some way of making everyone count. So not like the compasssport cup where you need the strongest to turn up. Everyone should turn up.
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
It sounds like the Scottish interclub champs and the Scottish CSC heats have the same purpose. Do we just present the interclub trophies at the end of the CSC heat?
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
andypat wrote:A few thoughts on the inter club champs
Thanks for these - they point out that really the first step is to define what the SICC are aimed at. Finding the club with the 10 strongest runners? With the most active members? With the widest range of good runners? The scoring system and the choice of event must match this. I like the idea of encouraging all club members to join in.
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
andypat wrote:4 the long start window of the Scottish and lack of same day prize giving meant most people left after running (weather too of course) Need to find a way of keeping everyone to the end.
That's why the Score champs could make a perfect inter-club event. Everyone can start virtually together (a few start waves depending on numbers) and everyone returns about the same time. Nobody "dnfs", sociable, inclusive, suitable for all.
- Sunlit Forres
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
SEOA has a club score championships, which is mass start, but unfortunately it's not that high profile, I don't think many are motivated by the club competition. Few clubs raise a full team.
But SOA might do better if:
- someone could use a laptop to calculate results within a few minutes of everyone finishing (to avoid drifting off).
- get everyone starting within 15 minutes.
- invent a scoring system that gives all clubs a chance of getting a full team and a chance of winning something (big and small clubs competitions? Handicapping?)
But SOA might do better if:
- someone could use a laptop to calculate results within a few minutes of everyone finishing (to avoid drifting off).
- get everyone starting within 15 minutes.
- invent a scoring system that gives all clubs a chance of getting a full team and a chance of winning something (big and small clubs competitions? Handicapping?)
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
I’m not convinced that the Score format is popular enough to encourage more club members to take part even with the added attraction of an inter-club competition.
I do however think there needs to be a re-think on the scoring mechanism, and andypat’s suggestions of all competitors scoring points makes sense… it just needs some careful consideration.
I think the Jamie Stevenson Trophy event works a treat for the juniors, having a centrally located race once a year means it allows most clubs to have a good shot at getting a lot of members excited enough to travel again and again. If the event was to be spread around a different region each year then I suspect we’d see the numbers varying greatly depending on the location.
Clearly it wouldn’t be fair to expect the centrally located clubs to manage the event each year so it would need to be shared out somehow across the whole of the Scottish club contigent… (I know what I’m trying to say, just not sure it’s coming across OK on here)
I do however think there needs to be a re-think on the scoring mechanism, and andypat’s suggestions of all competitors scoring points makes sense… it just needs some careful consideration.
I think the Jamie Stevenson Trophy event works a treat for the juniors, having a centrally located race once a year means it allows most clubs to have a good shot at getting a lot of members excited enough to travel again and again. If the event was to be spread around a different region each year then I suspect we’d see the numbers varying greatly depending on the location.
Clearly it wouldn’t be fair to expect the centrally located clubs to manage the event each year so it would need to be shared out somehow across the whole of the Scottish club contigent… (I know what I’m trying to say, just not sure it’s coming across OK on here)
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
graeme wrote:routegadget for the individual now up. Relays to follow
http://www.soa.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/
It has taken a while, but RG for the relays is now also there.
Autofitting GPS tracks is producing some oddities and is probably best avoided. "Reset" is your friend if it all goes wrong.
Direct links: Tranent, Gullane, Archerfield, Binning Wood
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
andypat wrote:A few thoughts on the inter club champs
and a few contrary ones...
How is the Scottish Champs elitist and non-inclusive? it had ~650 entrants, cf the CSC qualifier with 400-odd, (last year's most popular SOL was Culbin, I think, with 500+). Don't think there's room in the calendar for any more standalone events, so if this is going to exist then better to pin it to the most popular annual event and make sure you build in the promotion (and results calculation)
The closeness of the results is a function of the scoring system - taking the best 12 scores (6 for small clubs) from 16 courses is almost always going to give a closer result than taking the best 25 (or 13) from 11. If everyone scored then only the clubs with the largest turnout would stand a chance and the margins would be much greater.
Also, the specific scoring system used (based on courses not classes) means that the top scorers for any club are not necessarily all just the usual suspects - e.g. a quick scan through suggests FVO had 4 maximum pointers, running M45L, M60S, W20S and White
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
At the SOA AGM the proposal to scrap the Scottish Score Championships was voted in (by a majority of a single vote) so they will not be used for any Inter Club Competition (unless next year somebody puts in a proposal to re-instate the Score Champs). As it stands as the current M60 Champion I can keep the trophy in perpetuity.
Fac et Spera. Views expressed are not necessarily those of the Scottish 6 Days Assistant Coordinator
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
greywolf wrote:
How is the Scottish Champs elitist and non-inclusive?
Yes well I didnt say it was non-inclusive actually, but it is elitist. Every year we have an argument about why there are "B" classes - I appreciate the B winners all got something this time but I am unsure if that always happens. But what I am getting at is that an inter club competition should encourage everyone even complete novices to attend. A National Championship almost by definition isn't going to do that. Plus the courses are always going to be towards the longer and harder end of the spectrum - just ask 180 minute man!
greywolf wrote:The closeness of the results is a function of the scoring system - taking the best 12 scores (6 for small clubs) from 16 courses is almost always going to give a closer result than taking the best 25 (or 13) from 11. If everyone scored then only the clubs with the largest turnout would stand a chance and the margins would be much greater.
Thats not the case. Everyone scoring doesn't necessarily mean everyone scoring highly. There's plenty of examples of scoring systems which go down as far as 10 or 1 and anyone after that still gets a point. Its like when Harry, Hermione and Ron all got 100 house points for doing cool stuff but Neville's 5 points were what won the house cup for Gryffindor. (I'm Neville in this example....)
frog wrote:It sounds like the Scottish interclub champs and the Scottish CSC heats have the same purpose. Do we just present the interclub trophies at the end of the CSC heat?
I'd say not. I think the CSC is won by the club with the 25 fastest orienteers in the right age categories, and 13 for the trophy. I't seem a bit pointless just handing them the interclub trophy as well. I mean in the sense that it would devalue the trophy to the point of being pointless.
I really do think the inter club trophy (if it is to continue at all) should be worth something in its own right. I like the idea of it being held in central scotland somewhere every year but maybe the winning clubs supply the officials for the following year or something.
I'm not sure about score (I like it but hardly anyone else seems to) but maybe a mass start event or something else a bit novel.
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Re: Scottish Championships 2017
Relay routegadget up now. C'mon, I want to know where you went!
http://www.soa.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#65
http://www.soa.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#65
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Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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