So the last local B/C event I did (DVO Chinley Churn)there was on offer a Black, Brown and Short Brown course, with entrants/finishes thus:
Black 9km: 6/6
Brown 8km: 11/11
SBrown 6.8: 15/16.
This weekend at SYO's Burbage event, level C, again the same 3 courses on offer. Current entries look like:
Black 8.8km: 8
Brown 7.2km: 7
SBrown 6.4km: 13
For competition purposes (and, slightly selfishly, for ranking points purposes), would it be worthwhile more often combining Black and Brown onto one Brown course that may be ever so slightly longer than it is? What are the guidelines here regards keeping all 3 courses?
One issue with doing this is, speaking to friends who are competent orienteers but a bit slower, some wouldn't feeling comfortable entering the same course as good M21s, even if it were the same course they would enter without any M21s on the start list - a psychology project for someone perhaps on perception and crowds perhaps!
Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
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Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
M21-Lairy
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Re: Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
Not sure whether that's a typical entry for a Level B event in that part of the country, but if so then it's not worth planning a separate "Black" course - and given it was won in 59 minutes by someone who (with all due respect) isn't a top elite it was only a Brown course anyway
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greywolf - addict
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Re: Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
Courses too short? What was the height on each of those examples above?
- iainwp
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Re: Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
In terms of guidelines, below Level A clubs are free to offer whatever courses they want.
From a purely selfish point of view I like long courses, but I suspect that many clubs would quite like to stop putting on Black, which, after all, usually requires extra controls. I deplore the recent tendency for clubs to open a Black course for pre-entries but to threaten to scrap it if they don't get enough.
In the scenarios you give I think I would be inclined to scrap the Brown course, and give the Brown runners the choice of running a course slightly longer or slightly shorter than their ideal length. I imagine a number of the quicker M35s and M40s would start "running up" given the nudge.
I don't really care about ranking points, and generally find that the degree of competition I personally get from a course has more to do with who else has entered rather than how many.
For smaller events I actually think Black/Short Brown/Short Blue/Very Short Green gives a better choice of course lengths than the traditional colours.
From a purely selfish point of view I like long courses, but I suspect that many clubs would quite like to stop putting on Black, which, after all, usually requires extra controls. I deplore the recent tendency for clubs to open a Black course for pre-entries but to threaten to scrap it if they don't get enough.
In the scenarios you give I think I would be inclined to scrap the Brown course, and give the Brown runners the choice of running a course slightly longer or slightly shorter than their ideal length. I imagine a number of the quicker M35s and M40s would start "running up" given the nudge.
I don't really care about ranking points, and generally find that the degree of competition I personally get from a course has more to do with who else has entered rather than how many.
For smaller events I actually think Black/Short Brown/Short Blue/Very Short Green gives a better choice of course lengths than the traditional colours.
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Scott - god
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Re: Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
I think this tends to go for lots of courses. For a variety of reasons there are a large number of courses at Burbage on Sunday mainly to fit with the YHOA superleague. This means that for some there is very little difference in distance etc.
For me the criteria of new needing additional courses should be based not just on the age classes doing the course but equally on the number of competitors. Too few and there is not much competition and there can be big gaps that can be demoralising. Too many and there is going to be too much likelihood of catching / being caught by people too often which for me would spoil the race.
So I would say the numbers for Brown and Black are too low and should be combined. The prospect of running another 5 - 10 minutes would be OK even an unfit M40. However it would be nice if there were 50 - 60 on the course so there there were a few people to compare yourself against...
Talking a couple of years ago to a fell runner they couldn't understand why there were so many courses as there is only one in fell running. That doesn't work so well in orienteering with the following etc. but when you have 10 people on a course and there may be over an hour between the first and last then there are going to be some pretty big gaps.
For me the criteria of new needing additional courses should be based not just on the age classes doing the course but equally on the number of competitors. Too few and there is not much competition and there can be big gaps that can be demoralising. Too many and there is going to be too much likelihood of catching / being caught by people too often which for me would spoil the race.
So I would say the numbers for Brown and Black are too low and should be combined. The prospect of running another 5 - 10 minutes would be OK even an unfit M40. However it would be nice if there were 50 - 60 on the course so there there were a few people to compare yourself against...
Talking a couple of years ago to a fell runner they couldn't understand why there were so many courses as there is only one in fell running. That doesn't work so well in orienteering with the following etc. but when you have 10 people on a course and there may be over an hour between the first and last then there are going to be some pretty big gaps.
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Re: Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
I think it's difficult to compare Chinley and Burbage entries, because there is no surcharge at Burbage for EoD. So I suspect preentries for courses at Burbage may be low. The western area of Burbage is pretty technical (although I have not seen the control site locations or courses) which may also attract EoDs.
- ianandmonika
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Re: Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
Don't forget that these races might be part of a series and courses may need to be in line with that
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
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Re: Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
andy wrote:Don't forget that these races might be part of a series and courses may need to be in line with that
Have you never been to an event where different classes share the same course? And if the series actually demanded a Black course (rather than a Brown course mis-labelled Black) then they failed anyway...
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greywolf - addict
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Re: Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
So on Chinley Churn the Black (~480m) and Brown (~420m) weren't too dissimilar in climb/km. Maybe somewhere mid-way as a Brown and scrap the black would have been preferable?
The SBrown, at ~315m, is quite a step down, which seems sensible as a stand-alone course.
Chinley Churn is pretty interesting in general, albeit very runnable. It offers tech contours as well as vaguer bearing-type nav. It's the hill I grew up looking at so I am a bit biased . The winning time on Black (59) was by Ben Windsor - not at the top level but definitely not too far off and perfectly capable of scalping squad members on his day (He should really have been asked to run for England at the SHIs ahead of me but was injured around the time of the selection races). I'd like to think I would have got close to his time but I ran 50km/1600m the day before, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!
Will be interesting to see what numbers we get at Burbage and the next few events in the area.
The SBrown, at ~315m, is quite a step down, which seems sensible as a stand-alone course.
Chinley Churn is pretty interesting in general, albeit very runnable. It offers tech contours as well as vaguer bearing-type nav. It's the hill I grew up looking at so I am a bit biased . The winning time on Black (59) was by Ben Windsor - not at the top level but definitely not too far off and perfectly capable of scalping squad members on his day (He should really have been asked to run for England at the SHIs ahead of me but was injured around the time of the selection races). I'd like to think I would have got close to his time but I ran 50km/1600m the day before, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!
Will be interesting to see what numbers we get at Burbage and the next few events in the area.
M21-Lairy
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Re: Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
Chinley and Burbage have some things in common, and some things are quite different. Both have lots of contours and rock detail. Chinley was mostly very runnable, whereas Burbage has a lot of heather, and plenty of bracken that hasn't died down much yet. Burbage will have running speeds on the TD5 courses that are much slower than Chinley.
I will be amazed/impressed, if any of the Black entrants get round it in less than 70 minutes.
Martin (controller, Burbage).
p.s. there are now 10 pre-entrants on Black, and EOD available, so hopefully Nick will get his ranking points.
I will be amazed/impressed, if any of the Black entrants get round it in less than 70 minutes.
Martin (controller, Burbage).
p.s. there are now 10 pre-entrants on Black, and EOD available, so hopefully Nick will get his ranking points.
Martin Ward, SYO (Chair) & SPOOK.
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Spookster - god
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Re: Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
haha my tongue was edging towards my cheek on the ranking points comment, although when JK middle and BUCS start times are determined by them I pay a bit more attention!
M21-Lairy
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Re: Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
peteT wrote: couldn't understand why there were so many courses
Sometimes we really ought to think about why we have rules, rather than what they are.
This is a particularly good one - originally we needed so many courses because we had so many runners the start list required it. That's not true any more.
Normally, when the reason for a rule disappears, the rule itself goes too. But in this case we kept the rule and found another justification - catering for a wide range of people. Even that new justification doesn't work here.
At issue is whether the competition or the participation is paramount. Having loads of courses caters for people like me who (usually) want to go for a run somewhere nice rather than race. Its to do with getting old, they tell me.
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graeme - god
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Re: Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
Had a quick look at the times from the CSC on burbage back in 2010, 9.8km and 265m climb. Mat Crane won in 62min. This time 8.8km and 350m, I suspect it will be a bit heavier going from Surprise View though.
What do people consider to be a 'good' number of people on a course? 60 over a 2 hour start window giving you a 2 minute gap between starts. Forested area can cope with 1 min start intervals I guess but not a mostly open area like Burbage. No doubt there are already recommendations about this somewhere...
What do people consider to be a 'good' number of people on a course? 60 over a 2 hour start window giving you a 2 minute gap between starts. Forested area can cope with 1 min start intervals I guess but not a mostly open area like Burbage. No doubt there are already recommendations about this somewhere...
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Re: Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
Spookster wrote:I will be amazed/impressed, if any of the Black entrants get round it in less than 70 minutes.
Martin (controller, Burbage).
p.s. there are now 10 pre-entrants on Black, and EOD available, so hopefully Nick will get his ranking points.
Definitely a Black Course, not a Brown.
Unfortunately no ranking points for Black runners, with only 8 finishers on the course.
Martin Ward, SYO (Chair) & SPOOK.
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Spookster - god
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Re: Shades of Dark: Blacks & Browns
It does support Nick's point though that combining Black and Brown might have been a good idea. To what though?
- Something in between? - Doesn't usually happen as we like to stick to the existing colours (and for good reason as it gives competitors an idea of what to expect)
- Cancel black and have only brown: Some black runners will be disappointed
- Cancel brown and have only black: Will brown runners be happy?
On balance though I would always prefer my course with more runners, even if slightly short/long, than too many courses. Case in point at the British (level A, I know) we insist on 27 courses when there are only 1200 or so entrants - an average of under 50 per course when there are 240 start slots available.
- Something in between? - Doesn't usually happen as we like to stick to the existing colours (and for good reason as it gives competitors an idea of what to expect)
- Cancel black and have only brown: Some black runners will be disappointed
- Cancel brown and have only black: Will brown runners be happy?
On balance though I would always prefer my course with more runners, even if slightly short/long, than too many courses. Case in point at the British (level A, I know) we insist on 27 courses when there are only 1200 or so entrants - an average of under 50 per course when there are 240 start slots available.
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