Interesting discussion. Some points:
In order to motivate yourself to keep training and racing hard in a consistent fashion, you have to have a passion for what you are doing. You might be capable of getting a better result in sprint, but if you don't enjoy it you are wasting your time trying. Better to do forest if that's what you are passionate about, and slip in a few sprint races for fun.
Labelling of runners and specialisation has always been a bad idea. Juniors especially. How can they tell what their best discipline is? Do the seniors know what their best discipline is? Some do, some don't. Let the juniors run whatever they like at JWOC - it is all good learning.
Training. I grew up orienteering in Scottish terrain. I was strong but slow. I made best progress in my forest orienteering after training to get my 10k down as low as possible. Recognise your weaknesses, and work on them. 3 x speed sessions a week for 5 years CAN ABSOLUTELY be the best possible training to perform in a tough scandi forest, if your lack of speed is your biggest weakness.
Do we really think Sport England will think top 6 in the relay is equivalent to top 6 in an individual? They'd have to be thick....
jobby Swedish forests. The ones where the bilberries are up to your armpits, and there are little rocks everywhere, and there are ankle-twisty felled areas with lots of young trees. We were having a particularly 'sweary' time in one such place during club training once. 'Why the hell do we come to this jobby hole when there is a forest of breath-taking beauty just over the road?' I ask. The response? 'What's wrong with this forest? We had the Swedish champs here a few years ago. Excellent terrain. Orienteering competitions should reward the toughest competitors - its a vital part of the sport!' Hmm. I beg to differ.
Elite programme focus changed
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Re: Elite programme focus changed
We had the Swedish champs here a few years ago. Excellent terrain. Orienteering competitions should reward the toughest competitors - its a vital part of the sport!' Hmm. I beg to differ.
I'm distraught - I had you down as a toughie - and all these years you've really been a wimp. But I must admit you've disguised it very well
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Re: Elite programme focus changed
Strider wrote:Ravinous wrote: Buzz - I quite agree there is too much labelling of runners - Juniors being told they 'are not forest orienteers' and being forced to specialise too early. Who is telling them this !? They are not getting that message from JROS tours.
And it's also certainly not us... maybe it's just one of those urban myths
S.
By proposing to focus on Sprint and Relays because you think its the best way to win medals surely you are saying that our athletes are not as good at Long and Middle, and specialisation has certainly become a feature of selections in recent years.
What is said to individual athletes and their coaches is confidential so I'll say nothing on that.
Personally I think juniors should work on all disciplines as the skills learnt in each complement each other, but I'm not against individual specialisation if the athlete and coach buy into it - partly because circumstance or background may favour one discipline but mainly because working on what you perceive to be your strengths is a powerful motivator and confidence builder.
The problem I see is that a monolithic squad with a one shoe fits all approach, imposing strategies without consulting athletes and coaches, will inevitably lack the subtlety required to get the best out of individual athletes in the short and long term.
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Re: Elite programme focus changed
Anyone in Forres this evening want to carry on the debate? I'll be the one with the Toy Story spaceman costume!
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buzz - addict
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Re: Elite programme focus changed
The sooner we encourage our athletes to start focusing on their strengths and bringing them up to a World Class level the better. It took me 5 years to have the confidence to go against the grain of GB orienteering culture (constantly being told i need to improve my weaknesses) and it was only then i could take the next step. Not only did i improve what i was good at, it was more enjoyable and i got the confidence to perform better in other areas of orienteering.
It is like asking Ronaldo to keep training to be a defender!
My best advice to juniors - play the field, find out what you're good at then focus on bringing those strengths up to a World Class level. [This is on the assumption that WOC medals are the target]
It is like asking Ronaldo to keep training to be a defender!
My best advice to juniors - play the field, find out what you're good at then focus on bringing those strengths up to a World Class level. [This is on the assumption that WOC medals are the target]
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Re: Elite programme focus changed
buzz wrote:Strider wrote:Ravinous wrote: Buzz - I quite agree there is too much labelling of runners - Juniors being told they 'are not forest orienteers' and being forced to specialise too early. Who is telling them this !? They are not getting that message from JROS tours.
And it's also certainly not us... maybe it's just one of those urban myths
S.
By proposing to focus on Sprint and Relays because you think its the best way to win medals surely you are saying that our athletes are not as good at Long and Middle, and specialisation has certainly become a feature of selections in recent years.
I'm not talking about the performance group strategy, I was referring to Nick's comment (above). I'll leave the senior debate to others...
buzz wrote: Personally I think juniors should work on all disciplines as the skills learnt in each complement each other, but I'm not against individual specialisation if the athlete and coach buy into it - partly because circumstance or background may favour one discipline but mainly because working on what you perceive to be your strengths is a powerful motivator and confidence builder.
I absolutely agree with you.
S
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Re: Elite programme focus changed
I've said it before and I'll say it again that if we want to give ourselves (Great Britain) the best chance of achieving forest medals in the future and on a regular basis we need to start training kids the technical skills at a very young age. Our very best coaches need to be working with 10-12 year olds, really challenging them, getting them to realise that any little error is a mistake and giving them feedback and attention to master the skills, getting them to be perfectionists. This is what they do in any other highly technical sport as they know if you don't start mastering the skills at this young age you've got very little chance of making it to the very top. You've got to take advantage of the various windows in a kids development phase, if you don't the development opportunity is almost always lost forever.
You only have to look at the attackpoint logs for many of Britain's orienteers to see there's very little technical training going on, and far more just basic running training. It's basically the same as a gymnast spending all day in the weights room and not using the rings or bar, or a figure skater training speed skating instead of doing their triple and quadruple jumps. It's not bloody rocket science!
You only have to look at the attackpoint logs for many of Britain's orienteers to see there's very little technical training going on, and far more just basic running training. It's basically the same as a gymnast spending all day in the weights room and not using the rings or bar, or a figure skater training speed skating instead of doing their triple and quadruple jumps. It's not bloody rocket science!
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Re: Elite programme focus changed
DIDSCO wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again that if we want to give ourselves (Great Britain) the best chance of achieving forest medals in the future and on a regular basis we need to start training kids the technical skills at a very young age. Our very best coaches need to be working with 10-12 year olds, really challenging them, getting them to realise that any little error is a mistake and giving them feedback and attention to master the skills, getting them to be perfectionists!
Absolutely, done it before and doing it again (3rd generation) only this time on a bigger scale and with a bucket load more experience. Massive base in Sheffield, 200+ on the White course each month with the winners running sub 5min km, the fastest are BOC and JK mini relays champions, and progressing into a very active YHOA squad.
I just hope that in 5 years time whatever we have by way of national squad will offer some support and continuity instead of doing their own thing.
I know there are other hotbeds of activity but apart from JROS, no real attempt to coordinate things at a national level.
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Re: Elite programme focus changed
Scotia wrote:My best advice to juniors - play the field
I was going to make a serious comment about strengths v weaknesses, then my own weakness for juvenile humour took over.
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
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Re: Elite programme focus changed
buzz wrote:I know there are other hotbeds of activity but apart from JROS, no real attempt to coordinate things at a national level.
I think the basic training of juniors has to be delegated to clubs - and until the majority of them are offering good quality regular progressive training to their juniors as they move through the ages and skill levels then we're not going to succeed - the regional and national squads should not be training juniors to use a compass or how to read contours, they should be working on more specialist racing and mental skills that require coaching beyond what a club coach can be expected to offer.
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Re: Elite programme focus changed
Big Jon wrote: I think the basic training of juniors has to be delegated to clubs - and until the majority of them are offering good quality regular progressive training to their juniors as they move through the ages and skill levels then we're not going to succeed - the regional and national squads should not be training juniors to use a compass or how to read contours, they should be working on more specialist racing and mental skills that require coaching beyond what a club coach can be expected to offer.
You're right, Jon, that this is a huge issue for us as a nation.
S.
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Re: Elite programme focus changed
Big Jon wrote:buzz wrote:I know there are other hotbeds of activity but apart from JROS, no real attempt to coordinate things at a national level.
I think the basic training of juniors has to be delegated to clubs - and until the majority of them are offering good quality regular progressive training to their juniors as they move through the ages and skill levels then we're not going to succeed - the regional and national squads should not be training juniors to use a compass or how to read contours, they should be working on more specialist racing and mental skills that require coaching beyond what a club coach can be expected to offer.
Sorry Jon I'm with Dids on this one. Our very best 11/12 year olds need to be challenged and guided. They should already be well beyond basic compass and pacing and learning how to race in different types of terrain. The key point Dids made is that it's a skills based sport. It takes years to perfect these types of skills and you can't unlearn poor technique.
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Re: Elite programme focus changed
buzz wrote:Big Jon wrote:buzz wrote:I know there are other hotbeds of activity but apart from JROS, no real attempt to coordinate things at a national level.
I think the basic training of juniors has to be delegated to clubs - and until the majority of them are offering good quality regular progressive training to their juniors as they move through the ages and skill levels then we're not going to succeed - the regional and national squads should not be training juniors to use a compass or how to read contours, they should be working on more specialist racing and mental skills that require coaching beyond what a club coach can be expected to offer.
Sorry Jon I'm with Dids on this one. Our very best 11/12 year olds need to be challenged and guided. They should already be well beyond basic compass and pacing and learning how to race in different types of terrain. The key point Dids made is that it's a skills based sport. It takes years to perfect these types of skills and you can't unlearn poor technique.
I think you're both saying the same thing here and they're all extremely valid points...
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Re: Elite programme focus changed
What I find interesting is that on this thread you've got the input of many of British orienteerings best - orienteers, former orienteers, coaches.......but not a single reply from anyone connected with BOF acknowledging the input and that they're going to act in some way upon it.........however when it comes to the membership and levy thread there is input almost on a daily basis. I'd have thought anyone working for BOF would be very interested in the input on this thread from former WOC medallists, coaches to WOC medallists, and maybe start thinking maybe we've got some changes to make.....?
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Re: Elite programme focus changed
DIDSCO wrote:What I find interesting is that on this thread you've got the input of many of British orienteerings best - orienteers, former orienteers, coaches.......but not a single reply from anyone connected with BOF acknowledging the input and that they're going to act in some way upon it.........however when it comes to the membership and levy thread there is input almost on a daily basis. I'd have thought anyone working for BOF would be very interested in the input on this thread from former WOC medallists, coaches to WOC medallists, and maybe start thinking maybe we've got some changes to make.....?
Don't hold your breath!!
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