Day 1 runs for a few competitors in MDOC's Twin Peak event this weekend were compromised when, despite dibbing in a Clear box and then a Check box, their SIAC cards had not become activated.
On Day 2, we added a test control box into the start lanes, and about six people failed the test and had to re-try the Clear and Check process. In all cases, the second go was successful and their wafters were OK.
Anyone know how or why the above can happen ? And is this approach going to have to be common practice at SIAC events ?
Start process for SIAC cards ?
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Re: Start process for SIAC cards ?
Surely the logical thing would be not to dib the check box but to waft it? Otherwise you are simply checking the normal SI bit is working.
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Re: Start process for SIAC cards ?
It's the CHECK process that activates AIR mode in the card ... so this CHECKs for a CLEARed SI Card, but not that it's working in AIR mode.
I think a problem with a test control is that you have to clear again before a START will work. Although I wasn't at Manchester so I don't know what you did there? timed start?
I think a problem with a test control is that you have to clear again before a START will work. Although I wasn't at Manchester so I don't know what you did there? timed start?
- iainwp
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Re: Start process for SIAC cards ?
iainwp wrote:I think a problem with a test control is that you have to clear again before a START will work. Although I wasn't at Manchester so I don't know what you did there? timed start?
We didn't clear again - though I do have an extra control between start and 1 (number 142) with no time, so maybe that's how it's recorded (no time because it was punched after clear and before start?) As the first leg of my course was a very short direct run, I'm confident I didn't pass any genuine controls on it.
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Re: Start process for SIAC cards ?
First time wafting and I got sent back twice and have a 142 showing at the start as an extra control but apart from that pretty impressed.
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Mrs H - god
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Re: Start process for SIAC cards ?
did you punch (dib?), waft or have a timed start?
- iainwp
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Re: Start process for SIAC cards ?
We wafted the start....
I had an issue in the second race on Saturday where my SI Card appeared to clear on the start line, but then didn't work at start, so I dibbed thinking it would be ok at controls..... but ended up having to dib, which was made worse with the wires through the hole....
No issue in race 1, where it was just a standard clear, check, waft start or today, with the extra test after check, but before wafting start.....
I had an issue in the second race on Saturday where my SI Card appeared to clear on the start line, but then didn't work at start, so I dibbed thinking it would be ok at controls..... but ended up having to dib, which was made worse with the wires through the hole....
No issue in race 1, where it was just a standard clear, check, waft start or today, with the extra test after check, but before wafting start.....
- sloaner
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Re: Start process for SIAC cards ?
The latest SI organisers' document suggests that there should be a test stage.
I was one of those affected on Saturday morning (check box definitely bleeped when SIAC card inserted, but the SIAC card itself didn't flash there or start - I dibbed round the course and was given my scheduled start time). As I was controlling Sunday I was concerned and happy that the test process was inserted, but also puzzled how the start worked when 142 had already been recorded during the test waft. (Perhaps the start always works if the card hasn't been started or finished since cleared).
But did this problem occur at any of the SIAC events earlier in the year? (JK sprint for elites and various other events which took up SI's trial offer) If not why now? New software version? Batteries starting to age?
I was one of those affected on Saturday morning (check box definitely bleeped when SIAC card inserted, but the SIAC card itself didn't flash there or start - I dibbed round the course and was given my scheduled start time). As I was controlling Sunday I was concerned and happy that the test process was inserted, but also puzzled how the start worked when 142 had already been recorded during the test waft. (Perhaps the start always works if the card hasn't been started or finished since cleared).
But did this problem occur at any of the SIAC events earlier in the year? (JK sprint for elites and various other events which took up SI's trial offer) If not why now? New software version? Batteries starting to age?
- PG
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Re: Start process for SIAC cards ?
The hired dibbers (wafters?) were supplied with a wrist strap.
This was fine for wafting the course controls, but awkward for dibbing the clear, check and download controls easily.
Several dibbers failed to set into wafting mode at the check control.
As far as I am aware, the problems only occured with the hired dibbers and not with experienced users with there own dibbers.
In addition in the morning race the check box recorded eight additional checks from non existent people. This is a safety issue if we do not know who is out. (These checks happened on the same second as correct checks with real dibbers, with almost but not quite identical binary SI Card numbers. There must have been a bad communication between the check box and the SI Card. Maybe this was caused by older hardware in the check box than in the new dibbers, but if the firmware had a proper electronic handshake with crc checks this should never happen.)
This was fine for wafting the course controls, but awkward for dibbing the clear, check and download controls easily.
Several dibbers failed to set into wafting mode at the check control.
As far as I am aware, the problems only occured with the hired dibbers and not with experienced users with there own dibbers.
In addition in the morning race the check box recorded eight additional checks from non existent people. This is a safety issue if we do not know who is out. (These checks happened on the same second as correct checks with real dibbers, with almost but not quite identical binary SI Card numbers. There must have been a bad communication between the check box and the SI Card. Maybe this was caused by older hardware in the check box than in the new dibbers, but if the firmware had a proper electronic handshake with crc checks this should never happen.)
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Re: Start process for SIAC cards ?
PG wrote:puzzled how the start worked when 142 had already been recorded during the test waft. (Perhaps the start always works if the card hasn't been started or finished since cleared).
Not sure whether it's any different for Air, but I believe normal SI only stops you from starting if you've already recorded a start punch - it doesn't care if you've already punched some "normal" controls.
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Scott - god
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Re: Start process for SIAC cards ?
For info ...
142 was the test-waft control we used.
the Start overwrites the start slot, leaving the test waft as an irrelevant extra control at the beginning of your run.
I was very pleased with how well the test-waft worked on Day2. Apparently SELOC had already done the same for their SIAC events ... pity we didn't know about this for Day1.
The point of my starting this thread was to spread knowledge that there is an issue, but that there is also an easy solution. Also, some technical explanation of why there should be such an issue would be helpful ...
142 was the test-waft control we used.
the Start overwrites the start slot, leaving the test waft as an irrelevant extra control at the beginning of your run.
I was very pleased with how well the test-waft worked on Day2. Apparently SELOC had already done the same for their SIAC events ... pity we didn't know about this for Day1.
The point of my starting this thread was to spread knowledge that there is an issue, but that there is also an easy solution. Also, some technical explanation of why there should be such an issue would be helpful ...
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Re: Start process for SIAC cards ?
Discussion among the controllers and planners for the BOK Blast (3-4 Sep, please come!) has revealed that in the seven seconds or so that the SIACs are flashing, they can't do anything else. Which means that the start team should enforce sufficient gaps between clear and check and check and start. (And if you arrive late for your start, your progress through the system may not be as smooth as you might hope.) Could that have contributed to the problem?
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Re: Start process for SIAC cards ?
Roger, as said planner of the sprint race at the BOK Blast , I was affected on the second race in the sprint.
I was using my own, not a hired, SI Card and confirm I cleared at the start of the minute before starting, so well over the 7 seconds
Martin - like mine, of those I spoke to who had the issue, they were all using their own dibbers not hired ones (and I only purchased mine three weeks ago)
I was using my own, not a hired, SI Card and confirm I cleared at the start of the minute before starting, so well over the 7 seconds
Martin - like mine, of those I spoke to who had the issue, they were all using their own dibbers not hired ones (and I only purchased mine three weeks ago)
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Re: Start process for SIAC cards ?
We have had SIAC available at our weekly evening events for the last few months. All control boxes have firmware 649 installed. We use a punching start (normal, not air) because it is possible to punch before you are ready in the informal atmosphere of our evening events.
We have had no problems with people not being able to get their SIAC cards to start, even for those borrowing one of the 'loan' ones.
CLEAR by punching as normal. Punch the CHECK box and look for the flashing on the card. Then wait to see the intermittent white flash which will confirm everything working.
We haven't had to use a test box. But the control boxes on the course must be awake (having been 'dibbed' by an ordinary ecard at some stage) so that the competitor gets the proximity punching. It all works a treat. We have our autumn sprint series in September so we can really get some advantage!
We have had no problems with people not being able to get their SIAC cards to start, even for those borrowing one of the 'loan' ones.
CLEAR by punching as normal. Punch the CHECK box and look for the flashing on the card. Then wait to see the intermittent white flash which will confirm everything working.
We haven't had to use a test box. But the control boxes on the course must be awake (having been 'dibbed' by an ordinary ecard at some stage) so that the competitor gets the proximity punching. It all works a treat. We have our autumn sprint series in September so we can really get some advantage!
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Re: Start process for SIAC cards ?
Its great that all 11 of us now know about this issue... How about SI sending out some sort of notice (step by step) to have at the start for the benefit of the competitors and the start officials whenever this is being used?
When this happened to me at Edinburgh, it was simply a combined ignorance of the required process by me and the student on start. I think I cleared but wasnt offered a check and didnt know this was critical.
And yes its bloody difficult to punch when the SIAC is set up on your wrist to waft - I ended up taking it off and wrapping the band around my finger.
When this happened to me at Edinburgh, it was simply a combined ignorance of the required process by me and the student on start. I think I cleared but wasnt offered a check and didnt know this was critical.
And yes its bloody difficult to punch when the SIAC is set up on your wrist to waft - I ended up taking it off and wrapping the band around my finger.
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