JK 2017 format changes - votes
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Re: JK 2017 format changes - votes
In case people are interested, the IOF Rules Guidelines (to satisfy any pedants) can be found here: http://orienteering.org/wp-content/uplo ... nts_v2.pdf
Last edited by bewildered on Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JK 2017 format changes - votes
Thanks bewildered, well worth a very long look for the map extracts alone, but not at work!
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Re: JK 2017 format changes - votes
The problem with that document is that it doesn't have enough examples of the type
"you might think this is good for middle - but it isn't because...". We have areas far more technical than anything available to the JK: great areas, great courses. And we have the Japanese sprint/Norwegian middle: garbage area in, garbage course out. Nothing about how to plan.
Long and Sprint discussions are better, e.g. ...
... quite right too. But what does it mean for middle? Is it good practice to start a middle with a sequence of technical legs creating a big risk for groupings and following? Or should you start with non-technical legs?
"you might think this is good for middle - but it isn't because...". We have areas far more technical than anything available to the JK: great areas, great courses. And we have the Japanese sprint/Norwegian middle: garbage area in, garbage course out. Nothing about how to plan.
Long and Sprint discussions are better, e.g. ...
Something to avoid A word of warning! It is not good practice to start a Long Distance course with a sequence of technical legs. It creates big risk for groupings and following!
... quite right too. But what does it mean for middle? Is it good practice to start a middle with a sequence of technical legs creating a big risk for groupings and following? Or should you start with non-technical legs?
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: JK 2017 format changes - votes
In case people are interested, the IOF Rules can be found here:
Being pedantic, these aren't "the IOF Rules" at all (which can be found at http://orienteering.org/wp-content/uplo ... s-2016.pdf - see Appendix 6 for the profiles of Sprint, Middle, Long and Relay).
As the title says, they are guidelines for planning (which also happen to have a lot extracts from the IOF Rules included).
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Re: JK 2017 format changes - votes
An excellent example of good middle planning from the Scottish Spring thread:
http://3drerun.worldofo.com/2d/?server=%20...%20bf48d758ce
A really good mix of longer and shorter legs including at least 3 interesting (and still consistently technical) route choices.
http://3drerun.worldofo.com/2d/?server=%20...%20bf48d758ce
A really good mix of longer and shorter legs including at least 3 interesting (and still consistently technical) route choices.
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Re: JK 2017 format changes - votes
Arnold,
Where do you find the file? When you click your link, my browser redirects to http://3drerun.worldofo.com/and it's not clear where to go from there ...
Where do you find the file? When you click your link, my browser redirects to http://3drerun.worldofo.com/and it's not clear where to go from there ...
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Re: JK 2017 format changes - votes
Try,
http://3drerun.worldofo.com/2d/?server= ... bf48d758ce
The blue course made really good use of a small area - I wonder if people would have preferred a middle distance black course (see p24, 29 )
Notably, winner Peter Hodkinson had NO splits in the 1:25-2:40 range.
http://3drerun.worldofo.com/2d/?server= ... bf48d758ce
The blue course made really good use of a small area - I wonder if people would have preferred a middle distance black course (see p24, 29 )
Notably, winner Peter Hodkinson had NO splits in the 1:25-2:40 range.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: JK 2017 format changes - votes
Nice 'classic' use of the area, Graeme. I can't see any obvious improvements, except perhaps moving 6 away from the fence to the NEmost of the 3 crags on the south edge of the circle, with the potential dog-leg on 6-7-8 still avoided by the intervening small spur. I like the intensive use of the low visibilty woods. Nice to be able to discuss the merits of a course unprejudiced by 'style' dogma.
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Re: JK 2017 format changes - votes
Results, routegadget, tracking all up on http://scottishspring.weebly.com/
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Re: JK 2017 format changes - votes
Coming in late to this discussion, but a few thoughts
The difference in formats
I think that we have to accept that a fair amount of the definition of the format types is in fact post event rationalisation . In particular the Sprint format did not start off with its current emphasis on urban areas with rapid decision making being required. Early events were park races looking for TV coverage and evolved from there. So the guidelines are an attempt to distinguish the formats by more than just course length, but nothing is absolute. Route choice is okay in a Middle distance event, it's just that a 2.5k leg on a 5k course wouldn't represent good balance
impact of A Middle distance race on older veterans
Some of the comments here seem to have little idea of course lengths and times on a vets courses like M60 (mine). On M60L the winning times were 60min on Day 2 and 65 minutes on Day3 (8.7k) so a Middle distance course would probably be about 55% the length of these courses. Even M70 had a winning time of 56minutes over 6.5 k on Day, so again plenty of scope for a Middle race that was significantly different to a Long. Incidentally, I believe that the idea at the JK is that the Long courses should, on each day be 90% of ideal Long distance. If that is the case then that should mean that the Long day gets longer as recompense in 2017
As someone that came just over a quarter of the way down M60L I can definitely say that, after one sprint and 2 long races my legs were shot before I even started the relays, so the varied formula looks good to me. I can't think of many sports that demand 4 events of such duration in 4 days (okay, the Tour de Yorkshire)
using small areas for Middle distance races
As a planner the thing that struck me about the Wass event was how little of the forest on the map was actually used (for obvious reasons) - and I certainly didn't feel like I was being led into all of the controls. DAy2 2017 at Amblesham has a much bigger area to play with, maybe not so much detailed technical on the side of a steep hill, but plenty of detail still. Having said that, having to fit in 12k for M21L (say) would probably have ruled it out of contention as an area. Being able to use a smaller area doesn't mean that it is smalland crammed wall to wall with controls
and finally
I wait with bated breath to find out what the recommendations will be be for combining times from the two days given one day will (presumably) be W50 (say) and the other W50L and W50S (for example).
The difference in formats
I think that we have to accept that a fair amount of the definition of the format types is in fact post event rationalisation . In particular the Sprint format did not start off with its current emphasis on urban areas with rapid decision making being required. Early events were park races looking for TV coverage and evolved from there. So the guidelines are an attempt to distinguish the formats by more than just course length, but nothing is absolute. Route choice is okay in a Middle distance event, it's just that a 2.5k leg on a 5k course wouldn't represent good balance
impact of A Middle distance race on older veterans
Some of the comments here seem to have little idea of course lengths and times on a vets courses like M60 (mine). On M60L the winning times were 60min on Day 2 and 65 minutes on Day3 (8.7k) so a Middle distance course would probably be about 55% the length of these courses. Even M70 had a winning time of 56minutes over 6.5 k on Day, so again plenty of scope for a Middle race that was significantly different to a Long. Incidentally, I believe that the idea at the JK is that the Long courses should, on each day be 90% of ideal Long distance. If that is the case then that should mean that the Long day gets longer as recompense in 2017
As someone that came just over a quarter of the way down M60L I can definitely say that, after one sprint and 2 long races my legs were shot before I even started the relays, so the varied formula looks good to me. I can't think of many sports that demand 4 events of such duration in 4 days (okay, the Tour de Yorkshire)
using small areas for Middle distance races
As a planner the thing that struck me about the Wass event was how little of the forest on the map was actually used (for obvious reasons) - and I certainly didn't feel like I was being led into all of the controls. DAy2 2017 at Amblesham has a much bigger area to play with, maybe not so much detailed technical on the side of a steep hill, but plenty of detail still. Having said that, having to fit in 12k for M21L (say) would probably have ruled it out of contention as an area. Being able to use a smaller area doesn't mean that it is smalland crammed wall to wall with controls
and finally
I wait with bated breath to find out what the recommendations will be be for combining times from the two days given one day will (presumably) be W50 (say) and the other W50L and W50S (for example).
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Re: JK 2017 format changes - votes
Short courses are currently combined with other long courses up to M70S and W70S. Who knows what will be on offer in a few years when the current hordes of 55-65's demand hip, knee and ankle replacement classes!Slowtochide wrote:and finally
I wait with bated breath to find out what the recommendations will be be for combining times from the two days given one day will (presumably) be W50 (say) and the other W50L and W50S (for example).
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Re: JK 2017 format changes - votes
I wait with bated breath to find out what the recommendations will be be for combining times from the two days given one day will (presumably) be W50 (say) and the other W50L and W50S (for example).
Middle race on the Saturday only makes sense if the W50L and W50S are kept separate and each have courses around half the length of their Sunday course. If not, the W50S competitors will end up running the equivalent of a long race on both days.
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Re: JK 2017 format changes - votes
maprun wrote:Short courses are currently combined with other long courses up to M70S and W70S. Who knows what will be on offer in a few years when the current hordes of 55-65's demand hip, knee and ankle replacement classes!Slowtochide wrote:and finally
I wait with bated breath to find out what the recommendations will be be for combining times from the two days given one day will (presumably) be W50 (say) and the other W50L and W50S (for example).
My comment was not about class/course combinations on a single day but how results from the two days (I.e. Middle and Long races) would be combined.W50 (day2) + W50S (day3) in addition to W50 (day2) + W50L (day 3) depending upon what you enter? Or something else?
I'm happy with the move to a Middle race, just interested in some possibly inconvenient details
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SJC essentially wrote:"It makes no sense for W50 Short to run middle then short because that would be two longs"
He's not incorrect.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: JK 2017 format changes - votes
I assume, possibly wrongly, the short courses would continue to be paired with the same long courses as on Day 3. For example, W45S, W50S, M65S running with the W70L, as on course 22 this year. Otherwise you end up with a mixture of very full and nearly empty courses. It would seem simpler and avoid the short courses running double long courses.
Last edited by maprun on Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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