I'm a bit in the don't mind camp BUT take this year for example... I wouldn't have wanted to do a middle in Wass. M65 was about the same as M21E and fitted perfectly into the area and provided a good middle for them and a good long for us. I suspect if the middle became the norm for day 2 then the area would be chosen because it provided a good middle for E and the day 3 area because it provided a good classic for E. This would not necessarily provide the best middle and calssic for many classes.
I would have been happy this year with a long in Wass and a middle in Kilnsey but I don't think that is what would have happened.
The idea that having a middle on day 2 opens up more possible areas only applies to M16 to M60 and W18 to W50. The rest of us can have a long on the areas they use for the middle.
On the other hand I do like middle courses... I suppose what I'm trying to say is that we should trust the planners and controllers to do what provides the best courses and it may vary from year to year and class to class.
JK Format
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Re: JK Format
Scott wrote: After all, the current popularity of Short courses shows that lots of people don't like running long distances
What are we running when the discipline is not categorised, as in most events? I like running Blue courses, for example, and like a course that gets the maximum sustained orienteering challenge out of a given area for a course of this length. I don't care what you call it.
I've said it on here before: beware polarisation
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Re: JK Format
Indeed, it's interesting to compare course 1 (M21E) and course 18 (W50L) from Wass - both look like excellent courses which made great use of the area, but out of context I don't think I'd be able to tell you which was the Elite Middle race.
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Re: JK Format
Well if we're going to just use the middle and the sprint why would anyone bother? At this rate we'll have a JK with three urban sprint races and I sincerely hope all you young persons enjoy it. I will be at home (probably Fell Racing).
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Re: JK Format
Did I miss the complaints about the format of the last few JKs? This is nopesport after all...
If I were generous, I'd call this fixing a non-problem. If I weren't I'd say that the people who've failed to make a success of standalone "middle distance" events are foisting it into one place where (they think) it can't fail. I'll be back on M21E next year for day 1, and maybe I'll stay there till I'm a W50L...
Will short course runners have a middle short followed by a normal short which will longer than long's middle? Is the M50S middle longer or shorter than the short?
Between the planner, two controllers, one technical advisor and three IOF event advisors for the WOC middle, the concept of "middle style planning" was mentioned precisely never. About the only thing we all agreed on was that we should plan the best possible televisable course with a 34min winning time.
At Livingston yesterday, several kind M21Es and W65s said their course was exactly what they wanted. It was the same course.
If I were generous, I'd call this fixing a non-problem. If I weren't I'd say that the people who've failed to make a success of standalone "middle distance" events are foisting it into one place where (they think) it can't fail. I'll be back on M21E next year for day 1, and maybe I'll stay there till I'm a W50L...
Will short course runners have a middle short followed by a normal short which will longer than long's middle? Is the M50S middle longer or shorter than the short?
Scott wrote:Indeed, it's interesting to compare course 1 (M21E) and course 18 (W50L) from Wass
Between the planner, two controllers, one technical advisor and three IOF event advisors for the WOC middle, the concept of "middle style planning" was mentioned precisely never. About the only thing we all agreed on was that we should plan the best possible televisable course with a 34min winning time.
At Livingston yesterday, several kind M21Es and W65s said their course was exactly what they wanted. It was the same course.
Last edited by graeme on Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: JK Format
yted wrote:I'm a bit in the don't mind camp BUT take this year for example... I wouldn't have wanted to do a middle in Wass. I suspect if the middle became the norm for day 2 then the area would be chosen because it provided a good middle for E and the day 3 area because it provided a good classic for E. This would not necessarily provide the best middle and calssic for many classes.
Wass was chosen because of its ability to offer longer distances for younger classs than yours and mine, and its ability to handle the numbers, rather than for its suitability for a middle. It was well down the list of options, but was only picked when the options higher on the list became unviable due to waterlogging, parking difficulties etc.
I would have been happy this year with a long in Wass and a middle in Kilnsey but I don't think that is what would have happened.
I am really glad I wasn't asked to plan a Middle on Kilnsey. In fact I wouldn't have accepted the offer (but I'm sure somebody else would have). Given the open nature of the area,the density of the controls needed would have been greater than the area could have sustained. We were right on the limit as it was.
The idea that having a middle on day 2 opens up more possible areas only applies to M16 to M60 and W18 to W50. The rest of us can have a long on the areas they use for the middle.
Very possibly, but that is only part of the argument. And that is rather a large chunk of the entry list! I for one don't want a long on the area they use for the middle! In other words, it's not just about necessity but about offering a festival that includes as full a variety as possible.
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Re: JK Format
graeme wrote:Did I miss the complaints about the format of the last few JKs? This is nopesport after all...
Well, I certainly remember reading your views on the subject before, but am not going to spend time trawling back through posts to find them.......
If I were generous, I'd call this fixing a non-problem. If I weren't I'd say that the people who've failed to make a success of standalone "middle distance" events are foisting it into one place where (they think) it can't fail.
It may be a non-problem for you. In this household, it's definitely been a source of annoyance for some time.
I'll be back on M21E next year, and I'll stay there till I'm a W50L...
So that you can run Middle one day and Long the next?
Will short course runners have a middle short followed by a normal short which will longer than long's middle? Is the M50S middle longer or shorter than the short?
Is there an M50S sprint?
At Livingston yesterday, several kind M21Es and W65s said their course was exactly what they wanted. It was the same course.
And? What were they expecting?
(BTW, I'm glad to hear it went well, and sorry to miss it - we got as far as a day out in Edinburgh but injuries etc. precluded going the rest of the distance to Livingston).
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Re: JK Format
awk wrote:At Livingston yesterday, several kind M21Es and W65s said their course was exactly what they wanted. It was the same course.
And? What were they expecting?
M21 were expecting a sprint, W65 a long urban. I just planned the best course I could, which ended up with a higher control density than a typical urban: partly the nature of the area. At 2.9km it was within, but at the lower end of the 2-5-4.0 recommended W65 range. A 16 min winning time it was a tad long, though with too-young-to-cross-the-road Alastair Thomas on 16:11 maybe not over sprint distance.
awk wrote: If I were generous, I'd call this fixing a non-problem. ...
It may be a non-problem for you. In this household, it's definitely been a source of annoyance for some time.
It's not about what you or I might prefer (urban, since you didn't ask). It's an obvious non-problem because the JK has continually been the most successful event of the year. The only super-unpopular part of the JK (measured by attendance) was the training day* - now admirably fixed by the sprint without spoiling the rest of the w/e for traditionalists.
If you like middle, don't try to exploit a monopoly - put on a successful standalone middle weekend. Once they are flourishing in the way urban is then you can make the case for the JK. We tried it with the World Ranking Event at Scottish Spring - and got 36 entries on the middle courses . More people entered blue and green (i.e. the same course marketed as standard distance). I won't be doing that again!
* I think we were the last to put both training and sprint on Good Friday. Sprint attendance won by 10:1.
Last edited by graeme on Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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graeme - god
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Re: JK Format
This has been a long time coming, good to see!
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Re: JK Format
Just rename the Day 2 Short courses as Middle - so everyone has the choice of Middle or Long, and see how many people enter them
As Graeme points out, the planning may be no different. And apart from those people who are concerned about how the overall winners are determined it shouldn't make any difference.
But wait, people have that option at the moment... I wonder how many take it up?
As Graeme points out, the planning may be no different. And apart from those people who are concerned about how the overall winners are determined it shouldn't make any difference.
But wait, people have that option at the moment... I wonder how many take it up?
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Re: JK Format
The survey asked for any other suggestions.
I said some improvements could be made for the under 10's as most children of this age aren't ready to complete without shadowing. On the relay day for the children aged 7-10ish there is only a string/off-string and these children might feel left out from the party.
My suggestions were:
- shadowing should be allowed on M/W 10 B.
- children should be allowed to compete in pairs on the mini-relay.
I said some improvements could be made for the under 10's as most children of this age aren't ready to complete without shadowing. On the relay day for the children aged 7-10ish there is only a string/off-string and these children might feel left out from the party.
My suggestions were:
- shadowing should be allowed on M/W 10 B.
- children should be allowed to compete in pairs on the mini-relay.
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Re: JK Format
Just rename the Day 2 Short courses as Middle - so everyone has the choice of Middle or Long, and see how many people enter them.
But wait, people have that option at the moment... I wonder how many take it up?
2017 might be interesting if people are able to enter different age classes on the two days.
Run M21L at the Middle and M50L at the Long.
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Re: JK Format
... but the top competitors in each class will not do this as they would be excluding themselves from eligibility for the overall title.
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