Wass Crossing Point
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Wass Crossing Point
Interesting looking at Route Gadget. The lines on the maps indicate that the lower crossing should be used as it goes to that crossing point but was this mandatory? Looking at splits and routes there is about 30 seconds difference on the M20 E course. I am not sure, but why did the line go to the lower crossing?
- batty
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Re: Wass Crossing Point
Good question. The map seemed to require one to get onto the road using the SW 'crossing' point, and leave it using the NE 'crossing' point. But the control descriptions did not include a mandatory taped route. Most people on Course 13 (it was common to many courses) claim to have crossed the road just using the NE crossing (as did I - I didn't even notice that the line out of the previous control went south, just that there was a convenient crossing point to the SE). And anyway, the road was closed to traffic, wasn't it?
- cbg
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Re: Wass Crossing Point
By contrast, on course 13 I saw the line from the control going to the SW crossing point, and didn't spot the NE one until I was on the road, so I took the longer route.
curro ergo sum
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King Penguin - addict
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Re: Wass Crossing Point
I agree, I read the map/description sheet combination as needing to use the southern crossing point - then up the road and crossing back into the woods via the northern crossing point. There certainly was a number of runners approaching the northern crossing point directly and I think the splits show this to be closer to 40s advantage
The description sheet indicating one or more compulsory crossing points between the controls 8 and 9, and then a clearly diverted line between controls.
Rule 22.11
Crossing points must be indicated by curved brackets.
Where there is only one valid option for crossing an "uncrossable" boundary the line between controls should be bent to this point.
The "uncrossable" boundary being the road in this instance ?
- MacMan
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Re: Wass Crossing Point
On course 6 (M35L) the SW crossing point wasn't even an option...
despite the line on the map going to it and up the road. The control descriptions also show to use a mandatory crossing point. The line should (IMHO) be straight between the two controls with a break, as there is a choice of crossing points to use. I used the NE one of the two.
despite the line on the map going to it and up the road. The control descriptions also show to use a mandatory crossing point. The line should (IMHO) be straight between the two controls with a break, as there is a choice of crossing points to use. I used the NE one of the two.
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Stupid is as stupid does
- Forest Gump
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Re: Wass Crossing Point
Agree with Gump - his course seems to show that the whole set up around here was a bit of an error. I used the NE crossing point only as there was only one on the CD. The route up the hill from this was a bit iffy - case for a taped route through the thicket maybe as you pretty much had to relocate from wherever you ended up.
19-20 also a bit strange as the mandatory crossing point was accompanied by another unmapped one which would (should) have been an option just west of the control.
Bizarre.
19-20 also a bit strange as the mandatory crossing point was accompanied by another unmapped one which would (should) have been an option just west of the control.
Bizarre.
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
- andypat
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Re: Wass Crossing Point
IMHO the red line on Forest Gump's map shows that you have to go to the SW crossing point.
In addition, on the ground, there were tapes along the far side of the narrow ride to the NW of the stream. I saw these and assumed they were there to reinforce the fact that you couldn't cross the stream except immediately adjacent to the SW crossing point. I therefore ran down the ride to the SW crossing point and then up the (closed) road to the NE crossing point.
I agree it's not clear what was intended and that there was in the order of 30-40 seconds time difference. Had I been the Controller I wouldn't have allowed this ambiguity. Luckily the time loss wasn't decisive in my class.
It would be interesting to hear from the Planner/Controller what the intention was, the reasons behind the road being OOB (beyond the NE crossing point- despite it being closed to traffic) and why the crossing points were needed at all?
In addition, on the ground, there were tapes along the far side of the narrow ride to the NW of the stream. I saw these and assumed they were there to reinforce the fact that you couldn't cross the stream except immediately adjacent to the SW crossing point. I therefore ran down the ride to the SW crossing point and then up the (closed) road to the NE crossing point.
I agree it's not clear what was intended and that there was in the order of 30-40 seconds time difference. Had I been the Controller I wouldn't have allowed this ambiguity. Luckily the time loss wasn't decisive in my class.
It would be interesting to hear from the Planner/Controller what the intention was, the reasons behind the road being OOB (beyond the NE crossing point- despite it being closed to traffic) and why the crossing points were needed at all?
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Homer - diehard
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Re: Wass Crossing Point
I was the controller; it wasn’t clear; I regret not having a control at the SW marked crossing point to ensure everyone joined the road there.
The brief saga is as follows (I’m busy sorting kit for Saturday’s Middle at Tarn Hows!). Wass bank road is busy, lots of cars and particularly bicycles descending quickly. From a safety point of view I wanted everyone to cross in the same place where we could control them. I’d thought that crossing points on the description list were mandatory, someone will tell me! The road closure came later at the request of the Parish Council.
I made a mistake.
Yesterday I sent an article to Nick for CompassSport about controlling JK Day 2, one of the paragraphs is as follows:
After everything I do, I reflect on what I’d do differently if the event was next weekend?
Crossing point across Wass Bank Road. I was never really happy about how we illustrated the crossing point on the map. The idea was that everyone would join and cross the road at the same point, run up the road then into the forest. Learning point, the way it was marked and the extensive taping didn’t work and we should have either just used one crossing point symbol, southern one, or had a control there to force the issue. I think it was 20/30 seconds quicker to cut through the tapes, sorry.
I hope this did not detract too much from your enjoyment of such a tough area.
derek
The brief saga is as follows (I’m busy sorting kit for Saturday’s Middle at Tarn Hows!). Wass bank road is busy, lots of cars and particularly bicycles descending quickly. From a safety point of view I wanted everyone to cross in the same place where we could control them. I’d thought that crossing points on the description list were mandatory, someone will tell me! The road closure came later at the request of the Parish Council.
I made a mistake.
Yesterday I sent an article to Nick for CompassSport about controlling JK Day 2, one of the paragraphs is as follows:
After everything I do, I reflect on what I’d do differently if the event was next weekend?
Crossing point across Wass Bank Road. I was never really happy about how we illustrated the crossing point on the map. The idea was that everyone would join and cross the road at the same point, run up the road then into the forest. Learning point, the way it was marked and the extensive taping didn’t work and we should have either just used one crossing point symbol, southern one, or had a control there to force the issue. I think it was 20/30 seconds quicker to cut through the tapes, sorry.
I hope this did not detract too much from your enjoyment of such a tough area.
derek
- Derek A
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Re: Wass Crossing Point
Thanks for the explanation Derek. It didn't spoil it for me. In fact (along with everyone I spoke to) I found Wass much more enjoyable than expected.
I'm looking forward to what I'm sure will be a great course at Tarn Hows on Saturday.
I'm looking forward to what I'm sure will be a great course at Tarn Hows on Saturday.
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Homer - diehard
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Re: Wass Crossing Point
I misunderstand what we were meant to do and went directly to the higher crossing point. ( I actually thought the red line up the road was out-of-bounds markings!) I'd suggest if we were meant to do as described there should have been a taped route from the previous control. OR you shouldn't have shown the northern crossing point at all - we'd have had to go to the single crossing pint shown on the map and follow tapes (up the road and back into the forest).
It didn't/hasn't upset my enjoyment of the course/forest.
I, too, am looking forward to the highlight of the season - this Saturday's middle!
It didn't/hasn't upset my enjoyment of the course/forest.
I, too, am looking forward to the highlight of the season - this Saturday's middle!
From small acorns great Oak trees grow.
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Lard - diehard
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Re: Wass Crossing Point
Don't forget the second part of the coming w/e - Holme Fell... two top notch areas at the best time of year... why aren't there more of you coming??
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lakesorunner - white
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Re: Wass Crossing Point
Thanks Derek. Don't flagellate yourself (unless you enjoy that sort of thing), it is much more of a talking point / Planner/Controller's Conundrum than a valid complaint (but then I did take the short route ...). Achievement of the effect required could have been reinforced by a appropriate comment in the Final Details.
Wass (South) was a joy to compete in. I only remember the northern 'Green' bits from 20+ years ago.
Wass (South) was a joy to compete in. I only remember the northern 'Green' bits from 20+ years ago.
- cbg
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Re: Wass Crossing Point
lakesorunner wrote:Don't forget the second part of the coming w/e - Holme Fell... two top notch areas at the best time of year... why aren't there more of you coming??
Exhaustion!
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awk - god
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Re: Wass Crossing Point
Thanks Derek for the explanation.....Until this discussion on Nope I had never even noticed that I had done anything wrong (or not depending on your point of view) and I hadn't noticed the other crossing point down the road at all. It didn't detract from my run at all (and adding 30secs to my time would have no bearing on the results) BUT I would say that I have no recollection of crossing or seeing any tapes on the ride to get to the NE crossing point and, having a late start, I just followed a very muddy elephant track from my control #19 to the road and up the hill through the roddy to #20. The fact that the line is bent and that the control descriptions says use mandatory crossing point should have alerted me to what I was supposed to do so it was an error on my part "I made a mistake", but I also agree that it is not entirely clear and that (in hindsight) it could have been done differently.
However like everyone else I really enjoyed the course & area and it didn't affect my race. I just need to get my eyes tested as I couldn't read the map that well
Looking forward to a birthday O weekend in the lakes...37 on Sunday!!!
However like everyone else I really enjoyed the course & area and it didn't affect my race. I just need to get my eyes tested as I couldn't read the map that well
Looking forward to a birthday O weekend in the lakes...37 on Sunday!!!
Run (in) Forest(s) Run
Stupid is as stupid does
Stupid is as stupid does
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Re: Wass Crossing Point
Lard wrote:I'd suggest if we were meant to do as described there should have been a taped route from the previous control.
M21E, at least, did have tapes from the previous control to the southern crossing point - this threw me a bit as I hadn't been expecting to see tapes at that points and couldn't remember what that colour tape meant
I think the neatest solution would have been a control on the road at the southern crossing point, followed by tapes along the road to where we re-entered the forest at the northern crossing point. This could be shown as a control followed by a taped route on both the map (ISOM 705) and the descriptions (13.1) - no need for crossing points to appear on either. I'm generally not a big fan of the ISOM crossing point symbol when not used with an uncrossable boundary and/or in proximity to the very similar forbidden route symbol.
To echo what others have said, I really enjoyed Wass - the area was well-suited to Middle-style planning and the course made the most of it.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
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"If only you were younger and better..."
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