SIAC readiness
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Re: SIAC readiness
It sounds like all we need to do is put a £10 BO levy on SI Air card purchases and all our problems are solved.
- SeanC
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Re: SIAC readiness
daffdy wrote:It's up on the British Orienteering website now, first item of news or this link might work.
If I understand the system correctly, I can use any SI card on any unit. Touch-free punching will only work if I have a SIAC card and the unit is SIAC enabled.
So what does the news item mean in practice?
If I'm the JK organiser, I have to SIAC-enable all controls used on elite courses and disable those not used?
If I'm an M50, will I be DQed for using my SIAC card because of the time gained at controls shared with elites? Or do I need to hire a regular card (I exchanged my old one for an SIAC which was meant to always work )
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: SIAC readiness
graeme wrote:If I'm the JK organiser, I have to SIAC-enable all controls used on elite courses and disable those not used?
If I'm an M50, will I be DQed for using my SIAC card because of the time gained at controls shared with elites? Or do I need to hire a regular card (I exchanged my old one for an SIAC which was meant to always work )
http://www.thejk.org.uk/index.php?pg=29 ... icpunching
Only the last control and finish on your course will be SIAir enabled. I'm not sure if any check turns on an SIAir or if a check needs to be programmed to do so, if the latter then it's trivial - you'd need to punch normally, if the former then you'd be able to swipe those controls..
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
- andy
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Re: SIAC readiness
from http://orienteering.org/wp-content/uplo ... 150409.pdf
Think the former. Could be an issue for the JK as you can probably save quite a bit on 2 straight run-through controls.
Think the former. Could be an issue for the JK as you can probably save quite a bit on 2 straight run-through controls.
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
- andy
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Re: SIAC readiness
We're all doomed
Bring back T-Bars First used in UK during FISU 1994.... thanks to the Musgrave / Ross / McIntyre coalition...........
Bring back Emit.... first used in serious races in the UK by the Musgrave / Ross / McIntyre coalition
Bring back T-Bars First used in UK during FISU 1994.... thanks to the Musgrave / Ross / McIntyre coalition...........
Bring back Emit.... first used in serious races in the UK by the Musgrave / Ross / McIntyre coalition
Go orienteering in Lithuania......... best in the world:)
Real Name - Gross
http://www.scottishotours.info
Real Name - Gross
http://www.scottishotours.info
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Gross - god
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Re: SIAC readiness
I think the decision to not allow mixed cards at a race has just killed contactless punching in the UK, RIP.
By not allowing evolution of demand there is no way to build the momentum needed to get more clubs to switch it on and to tempt people to think that they may gain an advantage by buying one. The all or nothing approach is too expensive for both clubs and competitors to kickstart it.
We are still only talking about seconds here, not minutes, so it's not like I'm going to go from the bottom third to top third in the results by spending £60 odd quid. I could gain far more time if I spent a bit of time doing some technical training. Perhaps we should not allow those people that train regularly to race in the same class as those that don't bother.
It reminds me of a school orienteering competition where a teacher complained to me that the winning school had cheated, as they had been to some orienteering events.
I had been about to take the plunge and buy one, and I'd also just advised someone buying their first card to get an SIAC, as the price difference wasn't that great and they would soon get the benefit of touchless, but now I'm shelving that idea.
By not allowing evolution of demand there is no way to build the momentum needed to get more clubs to switch it on and to tempt people to think that they may gain an advantage by buying one. The all or nothing approach is too expensive for both clubs and competitors to kickstart it.
We are still only talking about seconds here, not minutes, so it's not like I'm going to go from the bottom third to top third in the results by spending £60 odd quid. I could gain far more time if I spent a bit of time doing some technical training. Perhaps we should not allow those people that train regularly to race in the same class as those that don't bother.
It reminds me of a school orienteering competition where a teacher complained to me that the winning school had cheated, as they had been to some orienteering events.
I had been about to take the plunge and buy one, and I'd also just advised someone buying their first card to get an SIAC, as the price difference wasn't that great and they would soon get the benefit of touchless, but now I'm shelving that idea.
- Paul Frost
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Re: SIAC readiness
Paul Frost wrote:We are still only talking about seconds here, not minutes, so it's not like I'm going to go from the bottom third to top third in the results by spending £60 odd quid.
It's quite lot of seconds - 30 to 60 depending on other variables. If you're just bimbling about in the woods then maybe it doesn't matter, but at the front of a sprint race that's very signficant: last time i was at the JK sprint the top 5 in my class were all within 12 seconds.
And why should it kill contactless punching? If SI believe in their product they will make them available for hire at a sensible price, and over time some but not all folk will buy them. Does everyone in GB have their own EMIT brikke and SI card. No, but they (quite reasonably) expect to be able to hire one if they go to an event using them - why should SIAC be any different?
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greywolf - addict
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Re: SIAC readiness
andy wrote:Only the last control and finish on your course will be SIAir enabled.
Using the logic that a single TD5 leg on a course makes that course TD5 then a single SIAir unit makes it an SIAir course. If our premier event isn't going to follow the E&CC guidance then I can't see clubs doing so.
- NeilC
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Re: SIAC readiness
NeilC wrote:If our premier event isn't going to follow the E&CC guidance then I can't see clubs doing so.
It's not ideal but tbf the JK announced the arrangement before the E&CC guidance was issued.
They could remove the last control from the elite courses - but i suspect the maps have already gone to the printers...
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greywolf - addict
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Re: SIAC readiness
I don't see it as much different to when e-punching was first available, and we switched from using punch cards. It didn't happen overnight, and clubs had to ensure that sufficient hire cards were available, at a reasonable cost, for those who hadn't purchased their own. But eventually the newer technology won out.I think the decision to not allow mixed cards at a race has just killed contactless punching in the UK, RIP.
Admittedly the advantages at this stage (saving a few seconds at controls) seem less significant than previously (availability of splits, punching starts, enabling loops in courses, etc), but over time more will become apparent. E.g. eventually we could probably discard metal support stakes - a big advantage for planners - as you will only need to access the box if your SIAC battery has expired. We could even go back to the original days and hang controls from trees
One possible restriction is that it isn't yet clear how long the battery lasts, but this hasn't stopped Emit!
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Re: SIAC readiness
greywolf wrote:It's quite lot of seconds - 30 to 60 depending on other variables. If you're just bimbling about in the woods then maybe it doesn't matter, but at the front of a sprint race that's very signficant: last time i was at the JK sprint the top 5 in my class were all within 12 seconds.
If you are in the top 10% where seconds matter, you are probably very serious about your sport, and the relatively (compared to the whole cost of competing) small cost of a new SI card is not going to be a barrier to you.
greywolf wrote:And why should it kill contactless punching? If SI believe in their product they will make them available for hire at a sensible price, and over time some but not all folk will buy them.
Part of the problem is that people have become used to getting a loan/hire card for free, especially in Scotland (not sure about the rest). When they do hire, probably for a £1, they get a basic card that cost less than £30 and has probably been owned by the club for many years. If clubs have to buy 100 or more SIAC cards at £57 so that every competitor (even the bimbling around participant) can have one, it's not going to happen.
If clubs could just have a small stock of SIAC that they hired out at £3 a time for serious competitors I could see that working. The higher rental fee would also be an incentive to buy your own card.
That's why I think that you need a gradual evolution of demand, just like when the faster cards came out, the very competitive bought them early and raved about how fast they were to their mates and gradually over the years even the bimbling traded up.
greywolf wrote:Does everyone in GB have their own EMIT brikke and SI card. No, but they (quite reasonably) expect to be able to hire one if they go to an event using them - why should SIAC be any different?
I suspect that most regular orienteers do own their own card. If clubs charged a hire fee it would be an additional barrier for newcomers and the more casual, especially if that hire fee became £3.
I've used £3 as an example as the return on investment needs to be higher due to the lower volume. It will take clubs a long time to recoup the £57 outlay.
- Paul Frost
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Re: SIAC readiness
The initial price might come down. It already appears to be possible to buy single cards for €62 in Latvia - currently around £48. Bulk cost ought to be lower still.
- Snail
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Re: SIAC readiness
It looks to me as though, for development/expansion of touch-free events, a lot will depend on how the clubs (and probably associations) react to the advice of the ECC.
If they apply the letter of the advice to all events, then for the reasons that have been articulated by Paul Frost and others before, it's going to be really hard to get the critical mass of users.
If, on the other hand, they give due consideration to the advice and then decide that for at least some of their events, probably activities, level D and arguably level C (by no means a JK sprint, for example, or a regional championship), they are prepared go with a mixed-punching system, then achieving uptake becomes a lot more possible. Personally, I hope they will go this way.
If they apply the letter of the advice to all events, then for the reasons that have been articulated by Paul Frost and others before, it's going to be really hard to get the critical mass of users.
If, on the other hand, they give due consideration to the advice and then decide that for at least some of their events, probably activities, level D and arguably level C (by no means a JK sprint, for example, or a regional championship), they are prepared go with a mixed-punching system, then achieving uptake becomes a lot more possible. Personally, I hope they will go this way.
- ricardito
Re: SIAC readiness
As a forest, fell, and general bimbler I bought a SIAC because my old card was getting slow and I'm a sucker for the latest tech
On my first go at contactless punching I soon discovered the advantages of not having to bend right down for low controls, step in the worst of the bog/brambles, go into the very depths of the abyss etc etc. I think I would also enjoy using it at an urban event when sometimes the tie securing the box gets in the way. Seconds, minutes and even the odd half hour don't really matter to me but ease of use does, so I'll be disappointed if I can't use it properly at a good range of events.
Having said all that, I'm not sorry I upgraded - it does a good, fast conventional punch too.
On my first go at contactless punching I soon discovered the advantages of not having to bend right down for low controls, step in the worst of the bog/brambles, go into the very depths of the abyss etc etc. I think I would also enjoy using it at an urban event when sometimes the tie securing the box gets in the way. Seconds, minutes and even the odd half hour don't really matter to me but ease of use does, so I'll be disappointed if I can't use it properly at a good range of events.
Having said all that, I'm not sorry I upgraded - it does a good, fast conventional punch too.
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Re: SIAC readiness
Shift Happens ... vinyl, cassette, disc, download ... Betamax, VHS, DVD, download ... B/W TV, Colour, Flat screen, Curved screen ... typewriter, word processor, computer, tablet ... telephone box, home phone, mobile ... card punch, SI/EMIT card contact, EMIT touchfree ... SIAC ... ...
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