Just read the latest BOF news. It appears that our insurers are now running the sport - with endless requirements for extra bureaucracy...
Just a thought - why doesn't BOF try to get a better insurer - one who is prepared to help the sport rather than just bleed it dry and impose vast amounts of crap on it.
Insurers running orienteering
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Re: Insurers running orienteering
Current one is one of the less onerous ones. It's not something specific to this insurer.
Personally I blame compensation culture.
Personally I blame compensation culture.
- daffdy
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Re: Insurers running orienteering
..... and the Risk Assessment that they want on display at registration is only going to say exactly what you will put in the final details.....
".....the area is largely a conifer plantation with good runnability, but tough in places when there has been brashing. The streams are flowing full at the moment with seasonal rain and should be crossed with care."
Nothing onerous, and should inform the competitors of what to expect. I feel sure the insurers would want 'first timers' to be particularly well informed by the organisers, and so there could be a handout with the sport's usual 'trips and falls' highlighted. Or in small print at the bottom of the RA.
I think we can meet the demands with a little thought about describing what to expect. Fifty odd years of 'O' and we have had very few accidents, so the record is good.
".....the area is largely a conifer plantation with good runnability, but tough in places when there has been brashing. The streams are flowing full at the moment with seasonal rain and should be crossed with care."
Nothing onerous, and should inform the competitors of what to expect. I feel sure the insurers would want 'first timers' to be particularly well informed by the organisers, and so there could be a handout with the sport's usual 'trips and falls' highlighted. Or in small print at the bottom of the RA.
I think we can meet the demands with a little thought about describing what to expect. Fifty odd years of 'O' and we have had very few accidents, so the record is good.
- RJ
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Re: Insurers running orienteering
Whilst I agree with RJ that this probably not too onerous I also feel that BO could get a better deal as I don't seem to need an RA on display at my fell race which is insured by the FRA. In practice I do have a warning about hazards on display but only to inform competitors of any unusual hazards.
BO won't be worried about the extra work - they won't be doing it!
BO won't be worried about the extra work - they won't be doing it!
- mykind
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Re: Insurers running orienteering
Mike's enews actually says :
"Still under discussion with the insurers are the possible requirement to publish the risk assessment with the event details on the promotional websites (often the club and British Orienteering websites) and on the entries website."
If this comes to pass, to me it says the actual RA will have to be included, not just a description of the terrain. OTT in my view.
"Still under discussion with the insurers are the possible requirement to publish the risk assessment with the event details on the promotional websites (often the club and British Orienteering websites) and on the entries website."
If this comes to pass, to me it says the actual RA will have to be included, not just a description of the terrain. OTT in my view.
curro ergo sum
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Re: Insurers running orienteering
Are we sure it is the insurers actually demanding these things or are they just being used as an excuse?
I don't see the display of the risk assesment at an event being an issue. The organiser will have produced it and will want a copy for reference at the event. OK nobody is going to read the thing at the event so it will make no difference to safety one way or the other, but there really isn't a problem printing an extra copy for general display.
What is a big problem is the requirement for ALL event officials to have attented an event safety workshop beforehand. Now I do think these workshops are a good idea - and requiring that the risk assesment to be reviewed by someone who has attended (probably the controller) seems reasonable. But to require anyone to attend before they plan, organise or even map an area seems a sure fire way to guaruntee that we never recruit any new officials.
I don't see the display of the risk assesment at an event being an issue. The organiser will have produced it and will want a copy for reference at the event. OK nobody is going to read the thing at the event so it will make no difference to safety one way or the other, but there really isn't a problem printing an extra copy for general display.
What is a big problem is the requirement for ALL event officials to have attented an event safety workshop beforehand. Now I do think these workshops are a good idea - and requiring that the risk assesment to be reviewed by someone who has attended (probably the controller) seems reasonable. But to require anyone to attend before they plan, organise or even map an area seems a sure fire way to guaruntee that we never recruit any new officials.
- pete.owens
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Re: Insurers running orienteering
...or indeed retain the existing ones, as I'm not sure I can be bothered to go on the safety course...
The bit that worries me the most isn't the bureaucracy in itself. It's the fact that BOF board and administrators seemingly spend 80% of their time on insurance and many other similar bits of crap. Safeguarding, waffly strategic plans, board capability audits, you name it. I challenge you to read a directors' meeting notes without your eyes glazing over after the first page.
It's a great way to keep busy without actually achieving much concrete action.
The bit that worries me the most isn't the bureaucracy in itself. It's the fact that BOF board and administrators seemingly spend 80% of their time on insurance and many other similar bits of crap. Safeguarding, waffly strategic plans, board capability audits, you name it. I challenge you to read a directors' meeting notes without your eyes glazing over after the first page.
It's a great way to keep busy without actually achieving much concrete action.
- Arnold
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Re: Insurers running orienteering
I'm not going on a safety course so all my planning and controlling activities ( at least three every year and up to ten some years) will just stop. I've been planning controlling and organising for twenty odd years and I'm a grade 3 controller.I also organise a Fell Race and was on the organising committee of the Lake District Mountain Trial for a number of years.
So what am I going to learn?
So what am I going to learn?
- mykind
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Re: Insurers running orienteering
As a Health & Safety professional who has both been on the safety course and taken the safety course I can honestly say I've enjoyed the ones that I've been at. It's a half-day or evening session so a fraction of the time that a lot of us spend on planning, organising or controlling just one event and there's a lot of experience that we can share with newer members in the group. Cups of tea, sandwiches and a blether with fellow orienteers makes it a social occasion too. That's the carrot part !
The stick part is that if things go pear-shaped the outcome of any insurance claim might not be good news for all concerned.
We've gone a bit off-topic from BigJon's original post though but I can confirm it's not just orienteering that's being hit by insurers requirements, the company I work for are receiving increasing demands to implement procedures that could reduce the amount of claims. No-one wants accidents but the list seems to grow every year
The stick part is that if things go pear-shaped the outcome of any insurance claim might not be good news for all concerned.
We've gone a bit off-topic from BigJon's original post though but I can confirm it's not just orienteering that's being hit by insurers requirements, the company I work for are receiving increasing demands to implement procedures that could reduce the amount of claims. No-one wants accidents but the list seems to grow every year
- lindseyk
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Re: Insurers running orienteering
These requirements are being driven by compensation culture.
To me this sport has been built on trust of fellow competitors and officials and, for me this is one of the core values of the sport. What is insidious, is that the requirements of insurers are driving us to a culture of not trusting our fellow competitors and officials, because of "compensation culture". In practice what is the risk, and how many times has the policy been invoked over the last fifty years because of "Compensation Culture"?
Is loss of trust in fellow competitors and officials actually "best practice".
To me this sport has been built on trust of fellow competitors and officials and, for me this is one of the core values of the sport. What is insidious, is that the requirements of insurers are driving us to a culture of not trusting our fellow competitors and officials, because of "compensation culture". In practice what is the risk, and how many times has the policy been invoked over the last fifty years because of "Compensation Culture"?
Is loss of trust in fellow competitors and officials actually "best practice".
- aiming off
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Re: Insurers running orienteering
I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Safety course is neither enjoyable or worthwhile. And it is reasonable for insurers to require that all event officials are aware of appropriate safety requirements.
But it is odd to have implemented that requirement by requiring everyone, of whatever experience, to have physically attended a course rather than via some other form of assessment, e.g. a simple test. Particularly since we already have a detailed safety appendix in the Rules, and existing officials have to be aware of those rules (and controllers to sign-off on risk assessments). Almost by definition the course will only cover a subset of that appendix. so will teach experienced officials nothing.
My club organised a safety course last year, with good attendance, so it probably won't organise another for say 3-4 years. (And my regional association no longer seems to organise courses of any sort, as it has no way of communicating directly with members). But two of the most experienced controllers couldn't attend the course (one away controlling and one out of the country), so are now potentially excluded from officiating.
I don't know if the course attendance itself is an specific insurer requirement or just BO's interpretation of that requirement, but the approach seems guaranteed to drive some of the most experienced people away from officiating, so in aggregate drive down the quality of event officials - which is surely the opposite of what the insurers wish to achieve.
But it is odd to have implemented that requirement by requiring everyone, of whatever experience, to have physically attended a course rather than via some other form of assessment, e.g. a simple test. Particularly since we already have a detailed safety appendix in the Rules, and existing officials have to be aware of those rules (and controllers to sign-off on risk assessments). Almost by definition the course will only cover a subset of that appendix. so will teach experienced officials nothing.
My club organised a safety course last year, with good attendance, so it probably won't organise another for say 3-4 years. (And my regional association no longer seems to organise courses of any sort, as it has no way of communicating directly with members). But two of the most experienced controllers couldn't attend the course (one away controlling and one out of the country), so are now potentially excluded from officiating.
I don't know if the course attendance itself is an specific insurer requirement or just BO's interpretation of that requirement, but the approach seems guaranteed to drive some of the most experienced people away from officiating, so in aggregate drive down the quality of event officials - which is surely the opposite of what the insurers wish to achieve.
- Snail
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Re: Insurers running orienteering
pete.owens wrote:....
What is a big problem is the requirement for ALL event officials to have attended an event safety workshop beforehand. Now I do think these workshops are a good idea - and requiring that the risk assessment to be reviewed by someone who has attended (probably the controller) seems reasonable. But to require anyone to attend before they plan, organise or even map an area seems a sure-fire way to guarantee that we never recruit any new officials.
Exactly this^^^ with the added effect of driving away lots of perfectly well-qualified people who can't/wont do the event safety course.
Just because it is a "good idea" or useful or fun doesn't mean it should become an absolute requirement.
- DaveR
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Re: Insurers running orienteering
I'm not enthused by having to attend an Event Safety Course, I can therefore see myself unable, by "law"(!), having to give up 40 years plus experience of planning, organising and controlling (to name but a few) - ah well, maybe I can concentrate on just competing then!
- haloite
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Re: Insurers running orienteering
It would seem an obvious candidate for an online course - does anyone know whether that's been looked into?
- Arnold
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Re: Insurers running orienteering
The way the workshops work tends to be interactive - with people sharing experiences with each other, rather than an instructor teaching passive students. It is not going to work on-line - and the experiences of those here who claim to have nothing to learn would be particularly valuable to the exercise.
I don't see the problem being existing commited officials. If you are putting in the time and effort to plan organise and control several events a year then you are not going to pack it all in just because you have to spend an afternoon in the company of some like minded people. Most of our regular officials have already been through a session, and I think it is already mandatory for controllers.
The difficulty from now on will be to find enough people who have not yet attended to provide the minimum number to put on a workshop in the first place - so those that haven't attended yet might have to wait a while before their club runs a session. Though if it does really become manadatory next year I would imagine there will be quite a few workshops this Winter - attended with all the enthusiasm of participants at a speed awareness course.
Then the problem will become even worse. Effectively ALL existing officials will have attended a workshop - thus all the attendees at any workshop will be by definition inexperienced and have little to share with each other at a workshop. That is if a club ever has enough potential officials at any one time to justify running one in the first place.
I don't see the problem being existing commited officials. If you are putting in the time and effort to plan organise and control several events a year then you are not going to pack it all in just because you have to spend an afternoon in the company of some like minded people. Most of our regular officials have already been through a session, and I think it is already mandatory for controllers.
The difficulty from now on will be to find enough people who have not yet attended to provide the minimum number to put on a workshop in the first place - so those that haven't attended yet might have to wait a while before their club runs a session. Though if it does really become manadatory next year I would imagine there will be quite a few workshops this Winter - attended with all the enthusiasm of participants at a speed awareness course.
Then the problem will become even worse. Effectively ALL existing officials will have attended a workshop - thus all the attendees at any workshop will be by definition inexperienced and have little to share with each other at a workshop. That is if a club ever has enough potential officials at any one time to justify running one in the first place.
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