There recently seems to be a tendency to underplan badge courses in the south east.
Today's Concorde Chase black course was won in 60:47 (target 67:00) and it's been similar at quite a few other recent events.
Black was 11.8k in very runnable forest when it should have been nearer 13k - which incidentally I'm sure it used to be "when I was a lad". Other courses are scaled so presumably also 10% too short.
SN trophy was 60:44 and GO 61:43
Any thoughts on why? I don't think the winners are getting any faster so are planners getting scared?
Underplanned courses
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Re: Underplanned courses
I particularly enjoyed the Green course at the Concorde Chase. It was well planned, the map was great and the forest was delightful.
I don't think we should be too worried about the odd 10% difference from the expected winning time, especially at this time of year when the weather could have been much worse than it was.
I don't think we should be too worried about the odd 10% difference from the expected winning time, especially at this time of year when the weather could have been much worse than it was.
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- david_rosen
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Re: Underplanned courses
I was going to say the same - I think 10% or so either way in a subjective sport such as ours isnt too big an issue.
Also wouldn't assume that all the other courses were the same out. there could be specific issues that affected the longer course (eg they accessed a faster part of the forest than others)
I got this a bit wrong for the longer sprint courses in the open sprint at Forres as longer courses accessed a steep wooded area that proved much slower than anticipated for faster runners - shortyer courses didnt reach it
Also wouldn't assume that all the other courses were the same out. there could be specific issues that affected the longer course (eg they accessed a faster part of the forest than others)
I got this a bit wrong for the longer sprint courses in the open sprint at Forres as longer courses accessed a steep wooded area that proved much slower than anticipated for faster runners - shortyer courses didnt reach it
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
- andypat
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Re: Underplanned courses
As the others have said, not a huge deal, but bringing it to the attention of the SEOA(?) is probably a good idea so they can mention it to future planners so at least they are aware.
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
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Re: Underplanned courses
I ran black at SN Trophy and GO Blackheath event. I believe the SN Trophy did not have access to as much of Ash Ranges as they would have liked.
I was a bit surprised they were so short but not unhappy. These are lightening fast areas of limited technical difficulty (in terms of running and navigation) so running flat out for 60 mins is hard work and enough for me, especially as there are County XC Champs the day before GO event and Brighton City Race the day before the SN Trophy.
I do remember feeling at Blackheath they could have put in more distance and taken us down some of the hills into the corners of the map, as the planning was rather kind re:climb.
Blackheath was lovely and sunny but cold and Ash relatively good weather.
I was a bit surprised they were so short but not unhappy. These are lightening fast areas of limited technical difficulty (in terms of running and navigation) so running flat out for 60 mins is hard work and enough for me, especially as there are County XC Champs the day before GO event and Brighton City Race the day before the SN Trophy.
I do remember feeling at Blackheath they could have put in more distance and taken us down some of the hills into the corners of the map, as the planning was rather kind re:climb.
Blackheath was lovely and sunny but cold and Ash relatively good weather.
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Ravinous - light green
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Re: Underplanned courses
Well, you could always try the 11.6km (plus 305 metres climb) at Netley Heath on
Sunday to see if there is a continuation of the "trend"
Sunday to see if there is a continuation of the "trend"
- MIE
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Re: Underplanned courses
Arnold - when you say "badge" do you mean "colours", or "courses at what used to be called badge events"?
If you mean the former, then it's been the case for a while that (for example) brown courses at many level C events in the south east are much more "underplanned". For example brown at the Havoc event at Hornchurch country park won in 45 minutes!
I wonder if most people just look at the course length/climb, google a map of the area (if they don't know it already) then make a judgement. Who even knows the recommended winning time for a brown course?*
Lets get rid of colours for distance and just have colours for technical difficulty. That might encourage organisers to vary the courses a bit. So for the experienced orienteers instead of:
green
blue
brown
you might get
green - 4km, expected time for 1200 point run = 40 mins
green - 6km, expected time for 1200 point run = 60 mins
green - 8km, expected time for 1200 point run = 80 mins
(assuming green = TD4 for example).
And this might encourage organisers to vary distances to what suits local market/area etc rather than feel they must produce the same list that was always so.
* I don't.
If you mean the former, then it's been the case for a while that (for example) brown courses at many level C events in the south east are much more "underplanned". For example brown at the Havoc event at Hornchurch country park won in 45 minutes!
I wonder if most people just look at the course length/climb, google a map of the area (if they don't know it already) then make a judgement. Who even knows the recommended winning time for a brown course?*
Lets get rid of colours for distance and just have colours for technical difficulty. That might encourage organisers to vary the courses a bit. So for the experienced orienteers instead of:
green
blue
brown
you might get
green - 4km, expected time for 1200 point run = 40 mins
green - 6km, expected time for 1200 point run = 60 mins
green - 8km, expected time for 1200 point run = 80 mins
(assuming green = TD4 for example).
And this might encourage organisers to vary distances to what suits local market/area etc rather than feel they must produce the same list that was always so.
* I don't.
- SeanC
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Re: Underplanned courses
What is a 1200pt run?
- mykind
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Re: Underplanned courses
Something i never get
- johnrobinson
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Re: Underplanned courses
Of course it doesn't really matter. Was just surprising.
On the plus side, Black course attendance seems to be increasing again (after a few lean years when even I managed to win one). 40+ runners at the Concorde Chase isn't bad, even if it's a shadow of M21L in the 70s/80s.
On the plus side, Black course attendance seems to be increasing again (after a few lean years when even I managed to win one). 40+ runners at the Concorde Chase isn't bad, even if it's a shadow of M21L in the 70s/80s.
- Arnold
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Re: Underplanned courses
Arnold wrote:Of course it doesn't really matter. Was just surprising.
On the plus side, Black course attendance seems to be increasing again (after a few lean years when even I managed to win one). 40+ runners at the Concorde Chase isn't bad, even if it's a shadow of M21L in the 70s/80s.
Well it probably matters now to the poor planner. Did you enjoy the course for what little time you were out there?
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
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Re: Underplanned courses
10% or so either way ... isnt too big an issue.
Agreed. But surely Arnold's point is that it tends to be always one way. And if the Black course is too short then it is almost always the case that the other courses are too short as well. More variation would be good.
With the current situation (in SEOA), if a club puts on a set of courses that are 10% too long, either deliberately or accidentally, then people will be running over 20% longer than they are used to. And the planner will probably get a lot of (unfair) criticism
- Snail
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Re: Underplanned courses
Arnold wrote:Of course it doesn't really matter. Was just surprising.
But it does matter, because knowing how long the course will take is important when deciding what to enter. There are M50s, even M60s on that Black course. That's fine in itself, but if people are running up because they expect the course to be short then we're creating a problem.
It's quite likely that the Black is the course I would have enjoyed most, but I wouldn't have known to enter it, and so I'd have missed out. I might even have looked at the distance and thought "Only 11.8k in the south east? - damn place must be full of brambles, I'm not going there!"
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Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Underplanned courses
Anyone tried adding their route to RouteGadget yet (http://www.bko.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#107)? I've just started this but gave up as too many circles were too far from where they should have been (e.g. 40m out).
And yes, the Blue was significantly shorter than I'd expected too ...
And yes, the Blue was significantly shorter than I'd expected too ...
- DJM
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Re: Underplanned courses
For photographs of some competitors and of the terrain used for the Concorde Chase, see: https://www.flickr.com/photos/103669960 ... 3454875709 Certainly the heath areas were faster than usual especially due to some very recent (and unexpected) clearance of young trees.
- DavidJ
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