[edit: this is the uncensored end of a longer thread, so the first post is now a bit of a non-sequitur]
On the contrary, its seldom helpful to hush this stuff up. If there are problems with bullying in the team - for which I have no evidence whatsoever - it can never be right to threaten the whistleblowers with litigation in the hope it will go away.
What little I do know from the outside suggests that the GB squad, particularly the women, has not been a happy place for many, many years. This being so, it points to a structural problem which BOF need to sort out, not a problem with any specific individual.
Constructive non-personal discussion of GB squad culture
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Constructive non-personal discussion of GB squad culture
Last edited by graeme on Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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graeme - god
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Re: George Santayana
graeme wrote:What little I do know from the outside suggests that the GB squad, particularly the women, has not been a happy place for many, many years. This being so, it points to a structural problem which BOF need to sort out, not a problem with any specific individual.
Harry's accusations go back some time and I understand that the team spirit at this year's WOC was better than it has been for years. It may of course be a coincidence that there was a change in BO management and in team membership last year, but perhaps the 'structural problems' have been addressed.
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Re: Cat Taylor in the National Press!
graeme wrote:On the contrary, its seldom helpful to hush this stuff up. If there are problems with bullying in the team - for which I have no evidence whatsoever - it can never be right to threaten the whistleblowers with litigation in the hope it will go away.
No threat or implied threat Graeme. Is this the right place to whistleblow or make allegations however vague or unsubstantiated?
I've worked in Occupational health with work-related stress issues being about half my work for nearly 20 years now. Long enough to know there are ALWAYS at least two and usually several sides to any story.
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Re: Cat Taylor in the National Press!
Edit: I withdraw all the contributions I can due to the biased way this discussion has been moderated.
Last edited by harry on Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cat Taylor in the National Press!
I've got very mixed feelings about this thread, as I think it's well and truely muddled up Cat Taylor with many years of obviously difficult experiences with team relationships, which were nothing to do with her (although might have contributed to what happened).
The forum has just flagged up Harry's most recent post before letting me post this, and I have a lot of sympathy and respect for her frustration and efforts to get a discussion going. I have absolutely no need to see proof of your achievements Harry, but feel intensely sad and worried that you have not found a forum/leadership within the sport that would allow the team to work on/profit from this together.
What follows will sound a bit bland, but here goes!
I've no doubt that things have often been tense for many years, although there will have been exceptionally good times too. The difficult team/individual behaviour scenarios we were given to work on in the old level 4 coaching course 10-15 years ago were obviously loosely based around real events of the previous 20 years and my own experience of dabbling at the fringes of international competition level in the 1970's led to a hasty retreat back to enjoying the sport outside of that setting! There was little in the way of an understanding welcome/offer to find out what I might have been capable of or how I could fit into the team as a complete "outsider". But I feel lucky that I enjoyed the sport much more outside the international teams. I really hope that the current set-up will work on welcoming, understanding, developing and supporting every high class orienteer that enters the system.
I don't know Cat, but I much prefer getting an impression of her from reading her own words at http://cattaylorstrainingdiary.moonfruit.com to this thread. It's going to be very tough for this incident to come up at any DBS check and job application for the foreseeable future. Most young people manage to get their worst episode of drunkeness out of the way in circumstances that don't hit the national press, even though they may have been totally obnoxious and/or in danger of death due to vomit inhalation.
The effect of eating disorders has also been separately brought up here and I think it's vital for everyone in teams and management to understand the destructive effect these can have not just on the affected athlete and their family, but on everyone in the team/housemates/friends. The feeling of helplessness that it can engender in others is often not appreciated and so support is not adequately factored in.
The forum has just flagged up Harry's most recent post before letting me post this, and I have a lot of sympathy and respect for her frustration and efforts to get a discussion going. I have absolutely no need to see proof of your achievements Harry, but feel intensely sad and worried that you have not found a forum/leadership within the sport that would allow the team to work on/profit from this together.
What follows will sound a bit bland, but here goes!
I've no doubt that things have often been tense for many years, although there will have been exceptionally good times too. The difficult team/individual behaviour scenarios we were given to work on in the old level 4 coaching course 10-15 years ago were obviously loosely based around real events of the previous 20 years and my own experience of dabbling at the fringes of international competition level in the 1970's led to a hasty retreat back to enjoying the sport outside of that setting! There was little in the way of an understanding welcome/offer to find out what I might have been capable of or how I could fit into the team as a complete "outsider". But I feel lucky that I enjoyed the sport much more outside the international teams. I really hope that the current set-up will work on welcoming, understanding, developing and supporting every high class orienteer that enters the system.
I don't know Cat, but I much prefer getting an impression of her from reading her own words at http://cattaylorstrainingdiary.moonfruit.com to this thread. It's going to be very tough for this incident to come up at any DBS check and job application for the foreseeable future. Most young people manage to get their worst episode of drunkeness out of the way in circumstances that don't hit the national press, even though they may have been totally obnoxious and/or in danger of death due to vomit inhalation.
The effect of eating disorders has also been separately brought up here and I think it's vital for everyone in teams and management to understand the destructive effect these can have not just on the affected athlete and their family, but on everyone in the team/housemates/friends. The feeling of helplessness that it can engender in others is often not appreciated and so support is not adequately factored in.
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Re: Cat Taylor in the National Press!
andypat wrote: Long enough to know there are ALWAYS at least two and usually several sides to any story.
Depends on the story... If you're looking for someone to blame and someone innocent, you're right. Nothing on here will convince anyone that X is a good person or Y is a bad person.*
But the emerging story is that "there is a problem with the structure of the squad".
Harry tells us there's a problem in the squad. We know there was a problem in the 00's, and the 90s and ifititches says it was there in the 70s too. It begins to look like a problem with how BO runs the squad, nothing to do with the specific people who happen to be in it now.
* except what Lard says, that andypat is a nice person: this we take for granted.
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Re: Constructive non-personal discussion of GB squad culture
Its funny having been part of the British squad through the 90's and early 00's I can't remember there ever being any real problems between the different boys/men on the team, despite many of us having very different personalities and acting like idiots. However there were always girls /woman that had problems with each other for whatever reason, and from my experience its the same in most sports - especially individual sports.
When you distance yourself from the sport after many years you realise how it was a bit crazy being made to train/live/stay together intensely together with your worst competitors in what is a true individual sport where only one person can be at the top of the results list. The whole squad system was/is almost set up as if it was a team sport, which is crazy when you think back, and not surprisingly causes problems. So much is talked about the squad, the british team, the WOC team, but its not a team sport, apart from the relay its purely individual and only one person can win. Should there even be a British Squad? Should more effort be made to drum it in to kids/young seniors that orienteering is a cut throat individual sport where there can be only one winner?
When you distance yourself from the sport after many years you realise how it was a bit crazy being made to train/live/stay together intensely together with your worst competitors in what is a true individual sport where only one person can be at the top of the results list. The whole squad system was/is almost set up as if it was a team sport, which is crazy when you think back, and not surprisingly causes problems. So much is talked about the squad, the british team, the WOC team, but its not a team sport, apart from the relay its purely individual and only one person can win. Should there even be a British Squad? Should more effort be made to drum it in to kids/young seniors that orienteering is a cut throat individual sport where there can be only one winner?
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Re: Constructive non-personal discussion of GB squad culture
DIDSCO wrote: Should more effort be made to drum it in to kids/young seniors that orienteering is a cut throat individual sport where there can be only one winner?
No
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Re: Constructive non-personal discussion of GB squad culture
"No"
Madmike > why not? and just to be clear - "one winner in every race"
Madmike > why not? and just to be clear - "one winner in every race"
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Re: Constructive non-personal discussion of GB squad culture
DIDSCO wrote:"No"
Madmike > why not? and just to be clear - "one winner in every race"
Agree that your clarification was needed DIDSCO - thanks for that.
What we should be telling our youngsters is that orienteering is them versus the tests set by the planner and posed by the terrain and to focus on their own race. We should not be trying to set them against each other as that will probably lead to more "culture" problems not less.
I suspect that those that get to the top will probably be the most focused, most intense, most single minded individuals anyway and imho you don't need to encourage poor "culture".
Yannick and O K-O are currently training together in SA - are you suggesting they should regard each other as mortal enemies rather than work together so they can both optimise their performance?
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Re: Constructive non-personal discussion of GB squad culture
madmike wrote:Yannick and O K-O are currently training together in SA - are you suggesting they should regard each other as mortal enemies rather than work together so they can both optimise their performance?
I think you miss the point. Presumably that Belgian and that Norwegian have chosen to train together. Do you think they're bad people because they aren't training with the Belgian/Norwegian squad?
There's a case that they aren't even aiming for the same thing. Yannick is a contender for individual WOC gold, with zero chance of a relay medal. O-KO would likely be delighted with an individual podium and targetting a relay win.
Last edited by graeme on Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Constructive non-personal discussion of GB squad culture
DIDSCO wrote:So much is talked about the squad, the british team, the WOC team, but its not a team sport, apart from the relay its purely individual and only one person can win
That's not totally true any more. Yes, there can only be one winner. BUT, the results of the team affect how the team ranks internationally and therefore decides how many spots the team get at future WOCs. There are team goals/objectives.
Agree this may have no impact on how the individual at the top of the podium wishes to prepare but for the squad/team there is more to think about than that getting that one individual to the top step.
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Re: Constructive non-personal discussion of GB squad culture
DIDSCO wrote: very different personalities and acting like idiots.
Don't believe a word of it
Last edited by Gross on Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Constructive non-personal discussion of GB squad culture
Madmike > agree on an individual level when standing on the startline"What we should be telling our youngsters is that orienteering is them versus the tests set by the planner and posed by the terrain and to focus on their own race" but thats not what my post is about,its about how we prepare them mentally to compete in an individual sport where they have to deal with winning and losing when competing against people they know very well/too well, you need to prepare kids to deal with the results list, and especially the girls.
Dave > do any runners standing on the startline actually give a jobby about that, aren't we all selfish individuals that are far more concerned about winning the race and getting individual glory as a number 1 priority.
Dave > do any runners standing on the startline actually give a jobby about that, aren't we all selfish individuals that are far more concerned about winning the race and getting individual glory as a number 1 priority.
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Re: Constructive non-personal discussion of GB squad culture
DIDSCO wrote: do any runners standing on the startline actually give a jobby about that, aren't we all selfish individuals that are far more concerned about winning the race and getting individual glory as a number 1 priority.
Maybe, but there's a big difference between a race, and being part of a training group. I'm happy to lead out intervals and shelter others from the wind, or run wide on corners. Not in a race. There are times when people's interests are aligned, and a squad system could work (maybe even WOC itself: I think we've never had two athletes on the same podium, so no GBR athlete's success ever really depended on other GBR athletes doing badly) - other times (selection races) it really is a zero-sum game and like you said ... it was a bit crazy being made to train/live/stay together intensely together with your worst competitors
At the risk of getting moderated...
I was quite taken aback by some strident and aggressive personal criticism at this year's selection races, not least because it involved a very excellent human being who I like a lot. Luckily, I don't give a monkey's cuss because I know I'm right , but it did bring home to me the level of stress these affairs put on people.
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