or....
planner and controller shouldn't put controls in places that can't easily, clearly, obviously, properly be represented on the map.
just a though
EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
If you could run forever ......
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Kitch - god
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
yes but in urban / sprint planning, the line between "very hard (fun) control" and "unfair control" is not always obvious, so sometimes you end up on the wrong side of that line...
PS: Mrs H, do you realise you've made a fairly geeky contribution to a fairly geeky discussion? Careful, soon you'll be running in garish o kit
PS: Mrs H, do you realise you've made a fairly geeky contribution to a fairly geeky discussion? Careful, soon you'll be running in garish o kit
- Arnold
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
Having run on the Exchange at RtC gave me a huge advantage over those who hadn't, especially as my two legs in the Exchange were virtually the same as last time But this wasn't just a case of having run there before, it was also because Saturday's map had all the shortcomings mentioned and the RtC map was much better; in particular the dotted underpasses were shown properly and there were different shades of beige for areas carrying traffic and areas that were for pedestrians only. This meant that the bridges and the low level car park stood out much more clearly.
I realise that it might be difficult to show these features clearly at 1:5000 but perhaps another time consideration could be give to having a flip over map (like at Sunday's race) with a large scale map for the Exchange, perhaps at 1:3000. It is a great orienteering area which deserves a good unambiguous map. Whether or not it is mapped to ISSOM standard is surely irrelevant.
I realise that it might be difficult to show these features clearly at 1:5000 but perhaps another time consideration could be give to having a flip over map (like at Sunday's race) with a large scale map for the Exchange, perhaps at 1:3000. It is a great orienteering area which deserves a good unambiguous map. Whether or not it is mapped to ISSOM standard is surely irrelevant.
- Mrs P
- string
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
Kitch wrote:or....
planner and controller shouldn't put controls in places that can't easily, clearly, obviously, properly be represented on the map.
just a though
Taken the words right out of my mouth
- Big Jon
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
Big Jon wrote:Kitch wrote:or....
planner and controller shouldn't put controls in places that can't easily, clearly, obviously, properly be represented on the map.
just a though
Taken the words right out of my mouth
Exactly, and it's how to do that with some of the more interesting urban areas which we're discussing.
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awk - god
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
graeme wrote:It would be helpful if BOF would sanction a better symbol for "bridge" that clearly distinguished it from crossable fence.
BOF Rule 17.6 wrote:The Organiser is permitted to vary Rules 18 - 31 to meet local requirements. Prior approval must be obtained from the Controller and the club responsible for the event.
So you don't need to wait for BOF.
If it was me I'd simply not use the bridge symbol at all: it isn't useful. As a competitor I need to know about what is on the sides of the mapped runnable level. So in this case I would definitely go for the thick black lines (you can't get off of it) plus dotted tunnel lines (but you can get underneath).
As Arnold said, if you are worried you can always warn people beforehand. It happens nearly every time the City of London Race goes anywhere near the Barbican.
Technically if you are on the running level it looks like a fence from the photo, but I''d probably map it as a wall since the tags will just cause confusion. I'd have a long think about leaving the statue off the bridge as well, since that adds yet more black noise.
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Simon E - green
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
I don't think it is so much a problem with ISSOM not being up to the job, but the fact that you are tryng to represent a 3D space on a 2D sheet of paper. There is no way of telling whether a feature drawn on that part of the map refers to the upper or lower level. For simple bridges or straight though underpasses, this is can be interpreted from the context, but as soon as you are trying to navigate through a complex interconnected space it is not going to work.
Having spent probably longer that I would take to complete a sprint race looking at the Edinburgh map fragments, I'm still not sure what is passable and where you would go to get from one level to the other.
Having spent probably longer that I would take to complete a sprint race looking at the Edinburgh map fragments, I'm still not sure what is passable and where you would go to get from one level to the other.
- pete.owens
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
The route into 18 is not shown on that map extract: over the bridge continue NW going round the end of the block of houses to your left and back down the other side to arrive at the car park area with the light green to the NW.
- dee-duncan
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
pete.owens wrote: There is no way of telling whether a feature drawn on that part of the map refers to the upper or lower level. For simple bridges or straight though underpasses, this is can be interpreted from the context, but as soon as you are trying to navigate through a complex interconnected space it is not going to work.
This is why I think something akin to the "run through" grey would work, no extra clutter on the map and that sort of intuitive transparent look to the object which means you are looking through something to what lies beneath. Just a question of deciding what half-tone colour you use to describe it.
Arnold wrote:PS: Mrs H, do you realise you've made a fairly geeky contribution to a fairly geeky discussion?
Gosh! Thanks Arnold!
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Mrs H - god
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
What I don't understand is why it should be OK to arbitrarily transform the bridge symbol, e.g. move the end tags so they don't align. That means it is no longer recognisable as the bridge symbol and thus defeats the whole point of making a map in the first place!
- dee-duncan
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
The RtC map is much clearer for controls 155 (#1 on E) and 133 (#3 on E). As used on saturday, it was difficult to read both. I visited the next day and it's obvious that the route from start to 155 is straight down the slope into and out of the carpark - the map implies you turn right underneath but then?? Competitors who took the risk had a big advantage. 133 was just impossible to understand.
Re Sunday, I also wondered about the BO rankings - how can mass starters be included? Also similar in 2014, when rainy conditions meant the maps were given out at assembly beforehand with competitors not told to look at them - I remember a lady sat on her own potty in the woods carefully studying her route choice before starting. That event also attracted ranking points.
Re Sunday, I also wondered about the BO rankings - how can mass starters be included? Also similar in 2014, when rainy conditions meant the maps were given out at assembly beforehand with competitors not told to look at them - I remember a lady sat on her own potty in the woods carefully studying her route choice before starting. That event also attracted ranking points.
- ianandmonika
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
Mrs H wrote:This is why I think something akin to the "run through" grey would work
Ha bloody ha! That's what I did for bridges on the original map, until I got told on here I was the sort of ignorant idiot who didn't even understand ISSOM. I guess if you stick to your guns, fashion will come back to you!
{quote="Simon"] you don't need to wait for BOF... [/quote]
True, but we don't want to get to the point where bridges are blue in Newcastle, brown in Edinburgh, grey in Malvern and whatever else wherever else. Because then people will fail to recognise the actual ISSOM symbol when they see it and get all cross about it.
Oh, wait...
Last edited by graeme on Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
Simon E wrote:So you don't need to wait for BOF.
If it was me I'd simply not use the bridge symbol at all: it isn't useful. As a competitor I need to know about what is on the sides of the mapped runnable level. So in this case I would definitely go for the thick black lines (you can't get off of it) plus dotted tunnel lines (but you can get underneath).
Exactly! This would be clear and unambiguous .. but might need a scale that is larger than 1:5000.
- Mrs P
- string
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
Well the original map was 1:4000, unfortunately it was bastardised...
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mharky - team nopesport
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Re: EUOC's Edinburgh Big Weekend
Re Sunday, I also wondered about the BO rankings - how can mass starters be included?
I have re-uploaded the results after taking out the BOF numbers from them so they haven't been given points.
- SIman
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