TD5 course lengths
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TD5 course lengths
Is our sport getting too bland? Whenever a course significantly breaches the time / length guidelines some people think the planner / controller have "failed" and there needs to be an inquest / explanation. Would the sport be better if courses in good terrain were occasionally - or even frequently - on the long side? Should multi-day events have "long" as well as "middle race" days? Should we rule out a good area for BOC just because courses will be slightly short? Does it matter, provided we let competitors know what to expect? Etc
- Snail
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Re: TD5 course lengths
Snail wrote:Does it matter, provided we let competitors know what to expect? Etc
this is the key, needs to be well known what we should expect from an event.
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
- andy
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Re: TD5 course lengths
One of the benefits of guidelines is that they let competitors know what to expect, and, say calling a course blue but saying it's short brown in the final details can only confuse.
For Colour coded courses , I think you need to stick to guidelines. Competitors are free to choose to run what they like anyway.
The only exception I regularly come across and accept is the brown might be a bit short in some small areas because the area cannot take a longer course. Even then , no point having 2 blues or 2 short browns if that this is the consequence. (And perhaps offering a middle distance event would be a better option if this is the only area you have- and it is technical enough).
For age class courses, the situation isn't so clear. I don't want to have to run down an age class because the planner thought it was ok to make my course over guidelines. I do have the choice to run short of course. If planners can't stick to guidelines, I would prefer that the long age class course was not shortened and the short age class not over long. That reflects one of the reasons why people choose long or short. In reality, that is not so straightforward as one persons short is another's long. E.G M45S is often the same course as W45L.
For Colour coded courses , I think you need to stick to guidelines. Competitors are free to choose to run what they like anyway.
The only exception I regularly come across and accept is the brown might be a bit short in some small areas because the area cannot take a longer course. Even then , no point having 2 blues or 2 short browns if that this is the consequence. (And perhaps offering a middle distance event would be a better option if this is the only area you have- and it is technical enough).
For age class courses, the situation isn't so clear. I don't want to have to run down an age class because the planner thought it was ok to make my course over guidelines. I do have the choice to run short of course. If planners can't stick to guidelines, I would prefer that the long age class course was not shortened and the short age class not over long. That reflects one of the reasons why people choose long or short. In reality, that is not so straightforward as one persons short is another's long. E.G M45S is often the same course as W45L.
- Marco Polo
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Re: TD5 course lengths
Perhaps this what Andy was saying as well?
added:
I seem to be repeating myself, so I've edited this slightly to make more sense.
One of the benefits of guidelines is that they let competitors know what to expect,
added:
I seem to be repeating myself, so I've edited this slightly to make more sense.
Last edited by Marco Polo on Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Marco Polo
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Re: TD5 course lengths
There are a lot of misconceptions about event planning/organisation out there. For example I have been told on many occasions that a Level C event must have at least 4 colour coded courses. No it doesn't, it could have a single 25km TD5 course if that's what the club wants to put on. As mentioned above the guidelines are there to ensure consistency so if you enter a Blue course at a long distance event, or M21E at the JK, you have a reasonable idea of what to expect. If your club wants to organise something different then there's nothing stopping you - just so long as it's made clear what's on offer.
- NeilC
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Re: TD5 course lengths
andy wrote:Snail wrote:Does it matter, provided we let competitors know what to expect? Etc
this is the key, needs to be well known what we should expect from an event.
And, in my opinion, well in advance of the event before the cheapest entry closing date.
What are pictorial descriptions?
- Electrocuted
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Re: TD5 course lengths
It's more important that a yellow isn't orange, or an orange isn't a light green.
A lot of clubs seem to call a light green a green in a TD4 area but that doesn't bother me at all. Neither does it bother me if a course takes me 10/15 mins more or less than expected. I just keep going until the finish appears. What we don't want is people (especially juniors) not coping with a standard of course they thought they were capable of, and getting put off the sport before they've really got going at it.
A lot of clubs seem to call a light green a green in a TD4 area but that doesn't bother me at all. Neither does it bother me if a course takes me 10/15 mins more or less than expected. I just keep going until the finish appears. What we don't want is people (especially juniors) not coping with a standard of course they thought they were capable of, and getting put off the sport before they've really got going at it.
- Sunlit Forres
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Re: TD5 course lengths
Agreed - that's why I asked about TD5 courses
But why do people feel the need to know in advance exactly what's on offer? Is there anything wrong in being out for 15% more or less than you initially expected to be?
If I am considering entering a half marathon that I haven't run before I don't necessarily expect to be told "this is a hard course, you might want to drop back to a 10 mile race".
I would much rather have a course that is too long / short but visits the better parts of the forest and offers better route choice, than one that fits the guidelines but is boring / goes through the grot.
On Day 5 in Scotland I realised half way round that it was going to be a long course, but didn't feel let down or cheated as a result. Shouldn't part of the physical / mental challenge be pacing yourself appropriately around whatever course is delivered on the day?
But why do people feel the need to know in advance exactly what's on offer? Is there anything wrong in being out for 15% more or less than you initially expected to be?
If I am considering entering a half marathon that I haven't run before I don't necessarily expect to be told "this is a hard course, you might want to drop back to a 10 mile race".
I would much rather have a course that is too long / short but visits the better parts of the forest and offers better route choice, than one that fits the guidelines but is boring / goes through the grot.
On Day 5 in Scotland I realised half way round that it was going to be a long course, but didn't feel let down or cheated as a result. Shouldn't part of the physical / mental challenge be pacing yourself appropriately around whatever course is delivered on the day?
- Snail
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Re: TD5 course lengths
If I am considering entering a half marathon that I haven't run before I don't necessarily expect to be told "this is a hard course, you might want to drop back to a 10 mile race".
But equally you wouldn't expect to turn up on the day to find that the organisers had extended it to 15 miles to take the route along a nice piece of country lane.
- SJC
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Re: TD5 course lengths
I think the problem is the colour coded system.
Compared to orienteering organisers, running races have it easy. They plan a course 5k, 10k, 10 mile etc course, publish the distance. It's up to the competitor to work out if the terrain is too tough or too easy. If it's not right for them they do a different course or go elsewhere.
Experienced orienteers are a bit molly coddled. Even though most of us are quite capable of doing a bit of research and finding out how tough an area is likely to be, our expectation is that the planner spends time adjusting the course length so that we take roughly the same amount of time for our favourite colour. And it's the planners/controllers fault if they get this wrong.
Ditching the colour system entirely would just mean that clubs just display the technical difficulty plus the length and it's our responsibility to decide if it's too long or short. As well as removing the pressure on planners to get the time calculation right, it might encourage organising clubs to put on a greater variety and more interesting range of distances, plus it might mean that clubs will correctly describe the technical difficulty when describing a course. I see brown courses down my way that are TD3, TD4 and TD5. New and inexperienced orienteers really need to know this information of course to prevent an offputting really long run or retirement.
For age based courses it's a trickier one.
Compared to orienteering organisers, running races have it easy. They plan a course 5k, 10k, 10 mile etc course, publish the distance. It's up to the competitor to work out if the terrain is too tough or too easy. If it's not right for them they do a different course or go elsewhere.
Experienced orienteers are a bit molly coddled. Even though most of us are quite capable of doing a bit of research and finding out how tough an area is likely to be, our expectation is that the planner spends time adjusting the course length so that we take roughly the same amount of time for our favourite colour. And it's the planners/controllers fault if they get this wrong.
Ditching the colour system entirely would just mean that clubs just display the technical difficulty plus the length and it's our responsibility to decide if it's too long or short. As well as removing the pressure on planners to get the time calculation right, it might encourage organising clubs to put on a greater variety and more interesting range of distances, plus it might mean that clubs will correctly describe the technical difficulty when describing a course. I see brown courses down my way that are TD3, TD4 and TD5. New and inexperienced orienteers really need to know this information of course to prevent an offputting really long run or retirement.
For age based courses it's a trickier one.
- SeanC
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Re: TD5 course lengths
Snail wrote:Agreed - that's why I asked about TD5 courses
But why do people feel the need to know in advance exactly what's on offer? Is there anything wrong in being out for 15% more or less than you initially expected to be?
Because with two young children I need to know course lengths and distances to the start to work out whether it's worth entering and whether one of us can get round the course and the other get to the start within the start window. I appreciate sometimes this won't be possible but it's not unreasonable to ask for these details before entries close is it?
What are pictorial descriptions?
- Electrocuted
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Re: TD5 course lengths
I agree that it's all about being clear what is offered
So if the Scottish had said "Day 5 will be won in 75 not 55, and the area is pretty tough" then I might have chosen to leave it out
So if the Scottish had said "Day 5 will be won in 75 not 55, and the area is pretty tough" then I might have chosen to leave it out
- Arnold
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Re: TD5 course lengths
Another part of the original question is whether there is an interest in more variation in courses - both in type (longO, middle) and in length.
So, for example: I am thinking of tagging a sort of longO course onto a club event next year (TAY is not organising any large events). The idea would be to have a compact area with the shorter courses (something like yellow, orange and green) and then have a few controls in a wider area, to create some longer courses with few controls and long legs (and hopefully a lot of route choice) - perhaps blue and black in length. Would such an informal non-standard long course appeal to people preparing for mountain marathons, purple thistle (or just fancying a long run)? And, looking at the post above, would you want it to be advertised as "this is equivalent to a black course but with fewer controls, with an expected M21 winning time of 65 min" or just "this is a 14k course in rough terrain"?
Disclaimer: the above plan has not been discussed with the club, I haven't given much thought to the practicalities, or whether there are isues with using one of our larger areas for a local event, etcetera
So, for example: I am thinking of tagging a sort of longO course onto a club event next year (TAY is not organising any large events). The idea would be to have a compact area with the shorter courses (something like yellow, orange and green) and then have a few controls in a wider area, to create some longer courses with few controls and long legs (and hopefully a lot of route choice) - perhaps blue and black in length. Would such an informal non-standard long course appeal to people preparing for mountain marathons, purple thistle (or just fancying a long run)? And, looking at the post above, would you want it to be advertised as "this is equivalent to a black course but with fewer controls, with an expected M21 winning time of 65 min" or just "this is a 14k course in rough terrain"?
Disclaimer: the above plan has not been discussed with the club, I haven't given much thought to the practicalities, or whether there are isues with using one of our larger areas for a local event, etcetera
- Rosine
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Re: TD5 course lengths
"this is equivalent to a black course but with fewer controls, with an expected M21 winning time of 65 min"
It sounds as though this is a Black course. Why does having fewer controls make it not so ?
- SJC
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Re: TD5 course lengths
I guess it comes down to expectations again. There normally would be a mix of challenges on a course with longer and shorter legs - do participants mind if a course has 6 very long legs instead of 15 shorter ones? When a course is advertised as middle distance people know to expect a higher control density, not just a shorter course. So it is about boundaries of what needs to be mentioned beforehand and what doesn't.
- Rosine
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