Two points of agreement with recent posts:-
- I decided to leave after Day 5 - grumpy at the car parking arrangements
- Day 5 may have been 'over planned' but it was by far the most enjoyable of my five days - because it was proper tough forest (unlike the pretty beech woods at Darnaway where you could just skip between controls on a bearing) - and because there were fewer controls and therefore several long legs with meaningful macro route choices (as opposed to micro navigational challenges).
I too ran M60 and Day 5 Leg 5 on RouteGadget shows a startling range of routes with little duplication.
Many thanks to all the Planners and Controllers but especially Day 5 - do I detect the Terry O trademark in those long legs?
Scottish Six Days
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Re: Scottish Six Days
So nobody went to day 6 because there were obviously going to be too many cars there
Affric (not Guisachen) is surely one of the most wonderful areas in the UK, so S6D really wanted to use it, and with WOC it meant using it on the last day. That's a special one-off, and in future we wouldn't want the last day to be the least accessible. As for Guisachen, some people obviously do like that sort of thing. Just because I don't, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
Guidelines typically have a margin of =-10% . DJM's chart says** guideline time for the courses was 23% less than the actual time, while on day 4 it was 18% more, so there are arguably similar fluctuations is each direction.
** DJM gave the amount by which the course was longer than the guideline, not vice versa, and picked out the women to get big numbers.
I'm massaging the data in a different way to get smaller numbers
Affric (not Guisachen) is surely one of the most wonderful areas in the UK, so S6D really wanted to use it, and with WOC it meant using it on the last day. That's a special one-off, and in future we wouldn't want the last day to be the least accessible. As for Guisachen, some people obviously do like that sort of thing. Just because I don't, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
Guidelines typically have a margin of =-10% . DJM's chart says** guideline time for the courses was 23% less than the actual time, while on day 4 it was 18% more, so there are arguably similar fluctuations is each direction.
** DJM gave the amount by which the course was longer than the guideline, not vice versa, and picked out the women to get big numbers.
I'm massaging the data in a different way to get smaller numbers
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Scottish Six Days
I'm thinking back to the discussion after the JK, where the number of long times on some courses was high. Quite aggressive criticism was dished out by people from the flat lands.
Thankfully that does not seem to be happening here.
Why can't we just accept this is a sport full of variety and if you take twice as long as the winners (as I did) get off your bums and do something about it (as I am trying to do).
I thought day 5 was tough but enjoyable so thank you to planners, organisers, car park team etc.
The most amusing thing on Day 5 was parking close to a white BMW that had followed the line of cars in "because they thought something was going on". Well it was and I hope they enjoyed it for the next 3 hours before they could leave.
Thankfully that does not seem to be happening here.
Why can't we just accept this is a sport full of variety and if you take twice as long as the winners (as I did) get off your bums and do something about it (as I am trying to do).
I thought day 5 was tough but enjoyable so thank you to planners, organisers, car park team etc.
The most amusing thing on Day 5 was parking close to a white BMW that had followed the line of cars in "because they thought something was going on". Well it was and I hope they enjoyed it for the next 3 hours before they could leave.
- DM
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Re: Scottish Six Days
I think there was an issue with Day 5 which has not been raised. I'm not quite sure what is meant by "over-planned", looking at my map and my course you might judge it to be entirely reasonable, but the truth on the ground was that (from a 9.55am start) large tracts of the map had no resemblance to the terrain in terms of runnability (not features). There were large areas of very difficult to cross terrain mapped as white, rough open which was virtually impassable (that large area near the finish) and at one point I looked at a plantation of small conifers trying to decide if it was rough open or light green (it was rough open).
Given that this was day 5 and we were familiar with the mapping style by then we were actively being misled by a sudden change of style. I don't keep maps so I can't tell if it was done at the same time and by the same person as the others but to me it seemed radically different in approach which seduced me into some inappropriate route choices
Given that this was day 5 and we were familiar with the mapping style by then we were actively being misled by a sudden change of style. I don't keep maps so I can't tell if it was done at the same time and by the same person as the others but to me it seemed radically different in approach which seduced me into some inappropriate route choices
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Mrs H - god
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Re: Scottish Six Days
Completely agree with Mrs H. I thought the Day 5 map bore no resemblance to reality, especially in terms of greens, white and yellows.
Sadly I didn't work this out till after my race had become irrelevant.
Sadly I didn't work this out till after my race had become irrelevant.
- Sloop
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Re: Scottish Six Days
I didnt do Day 6, mainly because it was in the opposite direction to where we were heading, but I found day 5 enjoyable and very challenging. Normally I think I'd have struggled in that terrain but I'm a bit fitter this year and that definitely helped.
I did have cause to curse the map a couple of times, once where there was a section of impassable windblow just W of my control (4 on C27). I'd to turn back through the control and reroute S. I dont think that was a mapping issue so much as a planning/controlling one tbh. The map was correct - mapped as thick undergrowth (I have a separate issue with mapping windblow as undergrowth but thats another matter! - but it was right at the control and made it pretty much impossible to stay high for the long leg.
The second one was later on (control where I made a 10min mistake. I found this kite very very hard to find, but cant really say if it was me or the map
I did have cause to curse the map a couple of times, once where there was a section of impassable windblow just W of my control (4 on C27). I'd to turn back through the control and reroute S. I dont think that was a mapping issue so much as a planning/controlling one tbh. The map was correct - mapped as thick undergrowth (I have a separate issue with mapping windblow as undergrowth but thats another matter! - but it was right at the control and made it pretty much impossible to stay high for the long leg.
The second one was later on (control where I made a 10min mistake. I found this kite very very hard to find, but cant really say if it was me or the map
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
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Re: Scottish Six Days
DM wrote:I'm thinking back to the discussion after the JK, where the number of long times on some courses was high. Quite aggressive criticism was dished out by people from the flat lands.
I haven't seen that discussion (will look for it), and haven't looked recently at the guidelines relevant to the S6D, but as I'm planning Day 3 at next year's JK, I am getting rather familiar with those! It's interesting how people refer to long times on their courses, because there's no such thing!
What I mean by that, is that the only course for which there is a given time to be achieved by the planner is M21E (90-100 mins). This has only been achieved 3 times in the past 13 years, all in the bottom half of the range, whilst the other 10 have all been shorter. All other courses are planned to a ratio, i.e. a percentage of the adjusted length of M21E. The times that are given in the guidelines are simply what the course should achieve if the ratio is followed - and often it doesn't, not least because classes are combined, and different classes run at different speeds, and the ratios don't account for physical difficulty (beyond an adjustment for climb). But they are only an indication - it's the ratios which define if a course is 'too long' or not.
This year's JK was, if anything, on the short side, with the M21E being won in under 90mins. So to say the courses were 'too long' based on the times, is somewhat unfair on the planners.
This might also explain why W21E has only achieved its range once in the past 5 years (70-80 mins)*, because, if one accepts that W21s run at 82% speed (as given in BOF planning guidelines), then a 0.65 ratio gives a winning time in the lower half of the range if the M21s are correct, but as they tend to shortness, so do the W21Es. Which might explain why this year's winning time by Cat was a minute or so short (the course was 0.64 of M21E).
All of which is part of the considerations for next year's long distance courses at the JK!
* Rather more prior to that - 5 times in the previous 8, but, like the men, never in the upper half of the range, partly because the ratio is geared up to provide that. Of those 13 JKs, 2014 in Wales and 2007 in the Forest of Dean are the only ones to have got both Men's and Women's times in the guideline ranges.
Last edited by awk on Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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awk - god
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Re: Scottish Six Days
Except that there is a little discretion to be applied when the terrain types aren't uniform across all categories.
At the JK the men elites had half(ish) 50% in nice runnable terrain and half on the rough rocky slope. The older competitors were mostly on the slope (bit of a shame but dictated I presume by the finish location) so you need to make them shorter than the ratios to account for that.
Although the problem seemed to be less the winning times and more the fact that many competitors lost proportionately more time to the winner on the rough slope than they would have in nice runnable terrain
At the JK the men elites had half(ish) 50% in nice runnable terrain and half on the rough rocky slope. The older competitors were mostly on the slope (bit of a shame but dictated I presume by the finish location) so you need to make them shorter than the ratios to account for that.
Although the problem seemed to be less the winning times and more the fact that many competitors lost proportionately more time to the winner on the rough slope than they would have in nice runnable terrain
- Arnold
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Re: Scottish Six Days
awk wrote:What I mean by that, is that the only course for which there is a given time to be achieved by the planner is M21E (90-100 mins). This has only been achieved 3 times in the past 13 years, all in the bottom half of the range, whilst the other 10 have all been shorter. [...] This might also explain why W21E has only achieved its range once in the past 5 years (70-80 mins)
To be fair, until a couple of years ago the specified JK Day 3 winning times were 85-95min for M21E and 65-75min for W21E.
Having noted that, while the M21E JK winning time was often around 85min, it was rare for a British man to go under 100min in the WOC Long, they were increased to bring them in line with the WRE guidelines after a pretty widespread consultation with athletes, coaches, the BOF performance programme etc.
I believe (but am not certain) that the ratios for the other age classes were adjusted to take into account the increased elite winning times.
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Scott - god
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Re: Scottish Six Days
Arnold wrote:competitors were mostly on the slope so you need to...
..ignore the guidelines. But even when there's a clear reason to do so, it would be a brave planner who would do that.
awk wrote: long times on their courses, because there's no such thing...
We still look for "reasonable" winning times (which you can get from the guidelines as M21E time * speed ratio * course length ratio). Those times used to be in the guidelines, but got deleted, and they should, in my opinion, be what we're aiming for. In many terrains the length ratios help to achieve this. If I find my courses don't follow the length ratios, then I expect myself to have a good reason why not. JK was a good example: M21e spent more than normal time in fast terrain (so shorten other courses), plus the terrain was steep and rocky (shorten older classes even more).
Last edited by graeme on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Scottish Six Days
Scott wrote:To be fair, until a couple of years ago the specified JK Day 3 winning times were 85-95min for M21E and 65-75min for W21E.
That explains a lot! My mistake - thanks for the correction. Using those ranges, the ten JKs pre-2013 saw the following:
M21E: 5 below the range, 4 in the lower half, 1 in the upper half, 0 above the range.
W21E: 4 below the range, 1 in the lower half, 5 in the upper half, 0 above the range.
2 other JKs saw both classes hit the ranges - 2006 in Yorkshire, 2009 in Northumberland
Looking in a bit more depth, I think that most of the W21E times below the range were in fact more to do with the shorter M21E times than the ratio, although the ratios of W21E compared with M21E times has varied over those 13 JKs from 0.74 at Braunton Burrows to 0.89 at Craig-a-Barns. Too many variables to explain probably, not least differing comparative standards of the respective class winners at different times.
It's all a bit theoretical, but what does matter to me is that if I stick to the ratio of 0.65, and using JK95 times, even if the M21E is planned for 100 mins (and I am trying to achieve the upper half of the range), then the W21E winning time, would only just achieve 70 mins. On that basis, I'm working on a slightly higher fraction to try and give a winning time of c. 75mins, closer to M35/M18E/M20E distance.
Fair points graeme and Arnold. In that respect I'm pretty lucky, in that the runnability on Kilnsey is fairly consistent, so overall I'm sticking to the ratios (with the above exception). Biggest concern, and possible influence, is the weather, especially given its an early Easter, with the bulk of the area over 300m, and many courses up to around 500m.
Last edited by awk on Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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awk - god
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Re: Scottish Six Days
It's not about ignoring guidelines, but about using them as intended - a guide line not an absolute must.
Also I'm always amazed planners don't seem to ask around for advice a bit more regarding correct lengths. Just ask around whether X distance on Y area for Z class "feels about right" or not, and you can avoid big issues quite easily. Like having further on Affric South than on Darnaway West for the same winning time...
Also I'm always amazed planners don't seem to ask around for advice a bit more regarding correct lengths. Just ask around whether X distance on Y area for Z class "feels about right" or not, and you can avoid big issues quite easily. Like having further on Affric South than on Darnaway West for the same winning time...
- Arnold
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Re: Scottish Six Days
Regarding Day 5 I also completely agree with MrsH's comments. It was impossible to choose the best route. Particularly annoying was the warning the male elites were given about one specific area of windblown which one of our legs went straight through on the optimum route. I got completely stuck (and that wasn't the only time). I almost retired a few times but have never done so not due to injury so persevered (the bilberries saved me!). In retrospect I wish I did retire as I am still recovering from a horrible cough...
It is not orienteering when you can't use your map to plan your route, it felt like the planners hadn't been out in the forest very recently at least. At least it will make this weekend's White Rose seem runnable!
Day 6 was fantastic though and so was the whole event altogether.
Thanks everyone.
It is not orienteering when you can't use your map to plan your route, it felt like the planners hadn't been out in the forest very recently at least. At least it will make this weekend's White Rose seem runnable!
Day 6 was fantastic though and so was the whole event altogether.
Thanks everyone.
- JennyJ
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Re: Scottish Six Days
Interesting the complaints about the rough slopes on JK day 3. I personally found them pretty runnable, no slower than the earlier terrain other than the angle. However i have definitely reached a stave of fitness where I struggle in undergrowth. It was also obvious to me at the recent Birsemore event that I no longer have the balance I used to have as I teetered across the boulderfields.
I still want to run in rough areas (I loved S6D day 5) but inevitzbly many of our aging population don't. Really sad if we stop using them. For all that Kilnsey will be enjoyable to run on it will never match Glen Affric, either N or S to me. I love the variety and I guess next year's JK will give us that.
I still want to run in rough areas (I loved S6D day 5) but inevitzbly many of our aging population don't. Really sad if we stop using them. For all that Kilnsey will be enjoyable to run on it will never match Glen Affric, either N or S to me. I love the variety and I guess next year's JK will give us that.
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Re: Scottish Six Days
Rough areas are fine if mapped accurately.
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