Should we have one - and if so what should it look like?
Pair it with British Sprints (freeing up the middle race to go at a better time of year) and have it in June/July when forest orienteering is not so attractive?
Should everybody run the same format? 4 legs woman-man-man-woman with 14 min winning time
Or should it be different for juniors / veterans?
British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
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Re: British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
Why not !!
Keep it simple -- one set of courses for all, with prizes/trophies
for Juniors (? x 2), Seniors, Vets and SuperVets.
If we start to go down the multiple courses/classes route for an
event/race as short as 3km(or thereabouts) it will be too complicated.
OK, a team of UltraVets(all 65+) may not be "fully competitive" with a team of
SuperVets(all 55+) but then the team from ?SLOW? are not "competitive" at the
Jukola (compared to the first 100 teams) but they still go "for the experience".
If we suddenly get 500 teams entering then there may be a rationale for having more courses, but this could remove the head-to-head racing element of the relay.
Keep it simple -- one set of courses for all, with prizes/trophies
for Juniors (? x 2), Seniors, Vets and SuperVets.
If we start to go down the multiple courses/classes route for an
event/race as short as 3km(or thereabouts) it will be too complicated.
OK, a team of UltraVets(all 65+) may not be "fully competitive" with a team of
SuperVets(all 55+) but then the team from ?SLOW? are not "competitive" at the
Jukola (compared to the first 100 teams) but they still go "for the experience".
If we suddenly get 500 teams entering then there may be a rationale for having more courses, but this could remove the head-to-head racing element of the relay.
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Re: British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
Love the idea.
I think it should be the same race for everyone, w-m-m-w, but with age-class appropriate teams in there too. Ideally not with the silly BOC relay age restrictions, either a JK or Scottish relay approach (i.e. 120+ style or handicap points, adjusted for 4 legs).
Perhaps a small junior equivalent at a different start time, for the 16- people?
I think it should be the same race for everyone, w-m-m-w, but with age-class appropriate teams in there too. Ideally not with the silly BOC relay age restrictions, either a JK or Scottish relay approach (i.e. 120+ style or handicap points, adjusted for 4 legs).
Perhaps a small junior equivalent at a different start time, for the 16- people?
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
- andy
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Re: British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
Nice idea, but some practical difficulties to address.
Adding another "major event weekend" isn't ideal - IMHO we should be cutting the number of such weekends rather than increasing them, to reduce participation fatigue.
It is already very difficult to find acceptable (i.e. traffic free) non-forest sprint areas. Not everyone has the WOC clout of closing a town centre to traffic, so JK/BSOC experience shows we are largely limited to certain uni campuses and MOD bases, and will quite possibly have to start re-using many of those in the near future. So if combined with BSOC it may mean re-running on the same area(s) as the previous day. And campuses might not be available in June, so it be more likely to end up in July and close to / clash with WOC.
BSOC had something like 770 competitors. Even if say only 600 stayed on for a MSR that would be 150 people in a mass start to arrive at their first control within say 30 seconds. With a single course (so a maximum of 4 gaffled controls) that might need multiple (perhaps touch free) punches on many controls.
The WMMW format works for WOC but for BOF would automatically exclude around a third of the membership, which in aggregate is around WMM (and with many clubs closer to WMMM). To ensure such clubs are enthusiastic about organising, perhaps better to have an open class with WMMW and a second class with a Harvester style handicap system and an open gender mix.
Adding another "major event weekend" isn't ideal - IMHO we should be cutting the number of such weekends rather than increasing them, to reduce participation fatigue.
It is already very difficult to find acceptable (i.e. traffic free) non-forest sprint areas. Not everyone has the WOC clout of closing a town centre to traffic, so JK/BSOC experience shows we are largely limited to certain uni campuses and MOD bases, and will quite possibly have to start re-using many of those in the near future. So if combined with BSOC it may mean re-running on the same area(s) as the previous day. And campuses might not be available in June, so it be more likely to end up in July and close to / clash with WOC.
BSOC had something like 770 competitors. Even if say only 600 stayed on for a MSR that would be 150 people in a mass start to arrive at their first control within say 30 seconds. With a single course (so a maximum of 4 gaffled controls) that might need multiple (perhaps touch free) punches on many controls.
The WMMW format works for WOC but for BOF would automatically exclude around a third of the membership, which in aggregate is around WMM (and with many clubs closer to WMMM). To ensure such clubs are enthusiastic about organising, perhaps better to have an open class with WMMW and a second class with a Harvester style handicap system and an open gender mix.
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Re: British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
gg wrote:Should we have one
Yup.
gg wrote:Pair it with British Sprints (freeing up the middle race to go at a better time of year) and have it in June/July when forest orienteering is not so attractive?
Yes: sprint-middle is a poor combination because its a waste to run round a campus when the forests are at their best. Sprint+Urban would be the most popular combo, but at least sprint + sprint relay makes sense.
gg wrote:Should everybody run the same format? 4 legs woman-man-man-woman with 14 min winning time
No. You need a format where all the people who come to the British Sprints can take part (i.e. many more men than women).
gg wrote: Or should it be different for juniors / veterans?
What would be the same? 14mins, 3km, or mass start?
You need multiple courses, because there's some optimum size for a sprint relay. More than about 20 well matched teams becomes unwieldy, even with touch-free.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
Snail wrote:The WMMW format works for WOC but for BOF would automatically exclude around a third of the membership, which in aggregate is around WMM (and with many clubs closer to WMMM).
Interestingly enough, the Hungarian MSRC in September is using a WMM team model for the "veteran" classes, presumably for just this reason. The classes and respective number of legs are:
3 legs V105A, V135A, V165A, V195A
4 legs V14A, V18A, V21A
- Domhnull Mor
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Re: British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
Danish Sprint Relay Championships used a W, M, W, M format.
People were allowed to run twice in the same team (courses used different parts of the area) and this resulted in teams with 2, 3 or 4 people in them, depending on the club. It seemed to work well and allowed a bit of flexibility.
People were allowed to run twice in the same team (courses used different parts of the area) and this resulted in teams with 2, 3 or 4 people in them, depending on the club. It seemed to work well and allowed a bit of flexibility.
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Re: British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
What is the difference between sprint and forest relay which means that the former must be mixed?
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
graeme wrote:What is the difference between sprint and forest relay which means that the former must be mixed?
What is the difference between sprint and forest?
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Re: British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
graeme wrote:What is the difference between sprint and forest relay which means that the former must be mixed?
Nothing?
Isn't the mixed relay concept just orienteering following cross-country skiing and biathlon with a short mixed relay for a bit of TV friendly action?
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Re: British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
What about holding it the same day as the british sprints but INSTEAD OF the qualifier?
So still two races that day
The qualifier is good fun but adds a huge amount of complexity to the day - seeding, calculating starts, multiple courses...think the UK is one of the few countries that does it
So really no more work than today, arguably less
So still two races that day
The qualifier is good fun but adds a huge amount of complexity to the day - seeding, calculating starts, multiple courses...think the UK is one of the few countries that does it
So really no more work than today, arguably less
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Re: British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
keever wrote:graeme wrote:What is the difference between sprint and forest relay which means that the former must be mixed?
What is the difference between sprint and forest?
one is a distance the other is a terrain type
hop fat boy, hop!
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madmike - guru
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Re: British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
Yes!
Making the British Sprints a straight final and then have the sprint relay in the afternoon is a good idea (is there any rationale for heats and finals other than to simulate qualification pressure for WOC-bound elites? not that's there's enough strength in depth to make this a reality anyway...)
Two races, with mass starts 5 minutes apart - the first a championship race for club teams run as WMMW with two or three age handicapped prize categories, the second an open race for teams of any composition.
They did this at POM this year, think there were 56 teams in the first race, maybe less in the second - as long as you have a decent run to the first control(s) the field should get well spread out
Making the British Sprints a straight final and then have the sprint relay in the afternoon is a good idea (is there any rationale for heats and finals other than to simulate qualification pressure for WOC-bound elites? not that's there's enough strength in depth to make this a reality anyway...)
Two races, with mass starts 5 minutes apart - the first a championship race for club teams run as WMMW with two or three age handicapped prize categories, the second an open race for teams of any composition.
They did this at POM this year, think there were 56 teams in the first race, maybe less in the second - as long as you have a decent run to the first control(s) the field should get well spread out
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greywolf - addict
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Re: British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
France started a Mixed relay this year. It worked very well.
The Classes were:
Championship WMMW (only one or two teams per club permitted)
Adult Open Mens
Adult Open Mixed (could be WWM or MMW)
Young Open Mens
Young Open Mixed (either WWM or MMW)
Open Short (mainly very small children plus an adult in some cases)
There were also individual courses M and Ladies not with a mass start.
Surprised that there were no Ladies classes but that fitted well with more Men attending plus most of the Ladies running in the Adult mixed.
The Classes were:
Championship WMMW (only one or two teams per club permitted)
Adult Open Mens
Adult Open Mixed (could be WWM or MMW)
Young Open Mens
Young Open Mixed (either WWM or MMW)
Open Short (mainly very small children plus an adult in some cases)
There were also individual courses M and Ladies not with a mass start.
Surprised that there were no Ladies classes but that fitted well with more Men attending plus most of the Ladies running in the Adult mixed.
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Re: British Mixed Sprint Relay Champs
greywolf wrote:is there any rationale for heats and finals other than to simulate qualification pressure for WOC-bound elites? not that's there's enough strength in depth to make this a reality anyway
That was the rationale since our Elites wanted more experience of qualification races. Less of the major championships however have qualification races now. I still get the impression that people enjoy the challenge of making a particular final at the British Sprints, and while the top elites can qualify easily they still have to decide just how much effort to put into qualifying.
While I personally would enjoy a MSR followed by the sprint proper I confidently predict that the relay would attract many fewer participants. Not only are relays much more unpopular that individual races but there would be less incentive for an early start on the Saturday/facing Friday traffic.
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