The JK day 3 answer is pretty easy. There were two distinct terrain types, runnable in the N and E; not very runnable in the S and W. Seems like the "older" courses were mostly in the latter, so they should be relatively shorter than the elite course ratios
As an aside my M35L course that day (half and half) was easily the most enjoyable I have run this year
PS my personal guidelines for elite courses:
Tough scottish terrain: W 9-10k, M 14-15k
Runnable hilly terrain: W11-12k, M17-18k
Clumber Park: W14k, M21k!
Suggested course lengths
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Re: Suggested course lengths
So, the conclusion is for something like the Concorde Chase at Cold Ash the Black Course was far too short had GG turned up, and should have been about 16km linear, being pretty fast terrain in soft southern forests.
And it's clear from the Appendix 2 course planning guidelines that you should scale everything down from a correctly planned Black course. So let's do it properly and have some decent length courses.
On this basis, if we get things "right", I reckon there are about 1000 folks nationally over 16 who could pitch up, run their age course, and get under 90 minutes. For the region that is developing most rapidly, EAOA, there would probably be less than 30. And what do people want. A straw poll of people around me said ideally they would like to be out 60 minutes, after 90 minutes it's a bit too much, and if there is any danger of being out over 100 minutes they'd stay at home. Oh, and if you run anything under your recommended age group you are increasingly regarded as second rate competitors who have no real place in the sport.
No wonder numbers are going down.
And it's clear from the Appendix 2 course planning guidelines that you should scale everything down from a correctly planned Black course. So let's do it properly and have some decent length courses.
On this basis, if we get things "right", I reckon there are about 1000 folks nationally over 16 who could pitch up, run their age course, and get under 90 minutes. For the region that is developing most rapidly, EAOA, there would probably be less than 30. And what do people want. A straw poll of people around me said ideally they would like to be out 60 minutes, after 90 minutes it's a bit too much, and if there is any danger of being out over 100 minutes they'd stay at home. Oh, and if you run anything under your recommended age group you are increasingly regarded as second rate competitors who have no real place in the sport.
No wonder numbers are going down.
- aiming off
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Re: Suggested course lengths
How did the other courses compare?
- Code: Select all
Class Length h-aKm Ratio Ratio Winner EWT
Recc Actual
W21E 10.2+425 14.45 0.65 0.64 68:55 70-80
M21L 10.8+485 15.65 0.73 0.69 94:10
M35L 10.0+445 14.45 0.68 0.64 78:37 65-75
M40L 9.6+400 13.6 0.65 0.60 74:55 60-65
M45L 7.9+350 11.4 0.53 0.50 56:43 55-65
M50L 7.4+250 9.9 0.50 0.44 57:33 55-65
M55L 6.9+265 9.55 0.47 0.42 56:08 55-65
W21L 6.8+315 9.95 0.46 0.44 63:02
W35L 6.7+270 9.4 0.45 0.42 57:43 55-65
W40L 6.7+270 9.4 0.45 0.42 72:16 55-65
M60L 6.4+235 8.75 0.43 0.39 52:30 55-65
W45L 5.2+325 8.45 0.38 0.37 60:47 50-60
M65L 5.1+320 8.3 0.36 0.37 65:05 50-60
W50L 5.1+300 8.1 0.36 0.36 55:35 50-60
M70L 4.5+200 6.5 0.33 0.29 57:04 50-60
W55L 4.5+200 6.5 0.33 0.29 47:40 50-60
W60L 4.2+215 6.35 0.31 0.28 55:38 50-60
M75L 4.0+170 5.7 0.28 0.25 59:24 50-60
W65L 4.0+170 5.7 0.28 0.25 55:34 50-60
W70L 3.4+185 5.25 0.24 0.23 52.14 50-60
M80 3.2+150 4.7 0.23 0.21 72:51 50-60
W75 3.2+150 4.7 0.23 0.21 75:41 50-60
M85 2.1+60 2.7 0.16 0.12 79:01 50-60
W80 2.1+60 2.7 0.16 0.12 56:42 50-60
On courses where a older man class shares with a younger woman class the winning woman is quicker than the winning man.
It looks pretty good to me: maybe it would have been even better if M65L and W50L had been the other way round with W50L the longer.
- afterthought
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Re: Suggested course lengths
aiming off wrote:So, the conclusion is for something like the Concorde Chase at Cold Ash the Black Course was far too short had GG turned up, and should have been about 16km linear.
What are you on about? Firstly, whether or not a course is too long or too short doesn't depend on who turns up. Secondly, it was a Level B event, so the Black course had an ewt of 67 mins and there's no way GG or anyone else would do 16km (linear) in that time.
In fact Jegor (ranked 14 in GB) did 11.8km (+355m climb) in 68.10 so I'd say the planner did pretty well.
aiming off wrote:A straw poll of people around me said ideally they would like to be out 60 minutes, after 90 minutes it's a bit too much, and if there is any danger of being out over 100 minutes they'd stay at home. Oh, and if you run anything under your recommended age group you are increasingly regarded as second rate competitors who have no real place in the sport.
Maybe you should stop making them feel that way Wasn't the point of moving to colour classes (for all but championships) to allow competitors to run the course that suited their needs rather than being corralled into age-classes?
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greywolf - addict
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Re: Suggested course lengths
aiming off wrote:So, the conclusion is for something like the Concorde Chase at Cold Ash the Black Course was far too short had GG turned up, and should have been about 16km linear, being pretty fast terrain in soft southern forests.
I don't get that answer.
I don't know how the parts of the map used compared with the 2013 JK, but at that event the Day 3 course was won by Matt Speake in 94:44. If the guidelines were the same then, then this produces similar numbers to the Lake Day 3 this year. Height adjusted Km is 22.0 (17.9+410). And Matt definitely meets the elite definition.
So you'd look for a black to be close to 16 height-adjusted km (not linear km). It was 11.8+355 = 15.35, so that seems pretty reasonable, as greywolf notes from what actually happened.
But I think the black course is properly the domain of people who have an idea what they're letting themselves in for. A more common course for the people of concern might be blue. Again noting similarity to the JK Day 3 numbers you'd look for a height-adjusted length of 8.5-9.0. In fact the Concorde Chase blue course was 7.6+230 or 9.9. So you can't say it was short, but maybe it didn't visit the slower (less nice) parts of the map. Top notch planning (and controlling) no doubt.
As it happens the blue was won by M55 Paul Lane in 56:32. Blue is 0.56 of black. The tables suggest M55 speed ratio of 0.77, so the estimate is a top M55 might do 67 x 0.56 / 0.77 mins. I make that 49 mins. Maybe if anything then it was a bit on the long side. Who was that suggesting that southern courses were often on the short side (it was me.)
You might notice the next to last finisher on the brown was the oldest person on the course, an M65 "running up". I think it's the same person, but perhaps not the same fitness, who won the British Long M65 by over 10 minutes.
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Re: Suggested course lengths
For those who are interested I've published the planner's spreadsheet for Cold Ash, which shows the calculations that Dave used to get the target lengths. I've also inserted the actual lengths and actual winning times, in some cases (e.g. green, won by a top M18 running down for middle-distance practice) giving the second place too.
The Light Green course was planned at TD4, i.e. the same (in this area) as Black. Similarly, Orange was intended to be genuinely TD3 and this may have taken some competitors by surprise.
The longer courses suffered from very late thinning, in areas that we had been assured by the foresters wouldn't be touched until after the event, which reduced runnability in the woods and turned many rides to quagmires. Competitors on the white course were amused to encounter a 4x4 that was stuck fast in the mud. (Similar late thinning and felling had caused the cancellation of HH's Ace of Herts event that was scheduled for the following week.)
But after we'd got the approximate target lengths, the focus was on producing good courses rather than on hitting the notional winning times precisely. Feedback was overwhelmingly positive.
The Light Green course was planned at TD4, i.e. the same (in this area) as Black. Similarly, Orange was intended to be genuinely TD3 and this may have taken some competitors by surprise.
The longer courses suffered from very late thinning, in areas that we had been assured by the foresters wouldn't be touched until after the event, which reduced runnability in the woods and turned many rides to quagmires. Competitors on the white course were amused to encounter a 4x4 that was stuck fast in the mud. (Similar late thinning and felling had caused the cancellation of HH's Ace of Herts event that was scheduled for the following week.)
But after we'd got the approximate target lengths, the focus was on producing good courses rather than on hitting the notional winning times precisely. Feedback was overwhelmingly positive.
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Roger - diehard
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