An old chestnut again. Looking at this weekend's results, some of the classes have so few competitors I wonder why we don't just have age classes like at the British Middles (ie no L and S). We seem to be offering an awful lot of colour classes at some events as well. Do we really need, for example, green, short green, very short green? Why not miss out short green and leave a technical very short green for some of our older competitors who enjoy the technical challenge?
It's a planner's nightmare at times trying to provide all these courses, often with 0.5k differences in lengths.
And don't get me started on white - the hardest course to get correct at times and often the only competitors are parents with kids too young to read!
Relays are another bone of contention - do you really need so many gaffles?
Classes/courses
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
29 posts
• Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
Re: Classes/courses
If you want to attract newcomers in the 21-35 age group, then I think you need long and short courses at least for that group - beginners would be likely to be out for a very long while on an M21L course. If the numbers in some classes are too small, I'd suggest using 10 year age groups, as is often done for running - so you could, for example, have M21, M40, M50, M60, M70 (although I suspect M50 and M60 would be so big that you'd have to add M55 and M65).
- roadrunner
- addict
- Posts: 1059
- Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:30 pm
Re: Classes/courses
I have to agree with you there RS. If we're going to bother with short classes at all I'd suggest a senior short (21/40) and vets short (45+).
Short classes tend to be entered by people who aren't fit enough to cope with the main competitive class for their age group, or are injured, or simply aren't very good but enjoy taking part in "badge" events (he says, showing his age). Maybe two "s" classes as above would suffice for all but the biggest events. For me (as an unfit, M55, medically challenged but technically competent "s" course competitor), it would be more enjoyable if there were more people to compete against. Knowing I'd beaten younger competitors, I'd perhaps get some sense of satisfaction if I came in the top few which I just don't get in my own age class.
Short classes tend to be entered by people who aren't fit enough to cope with the main competitive class for their age group, or are injured, or simply aren't very good but enjoy taking part in "badge" events (he says, showing his age). Maybe two "s" classes as above would suffice for all but the biggest events. For me (as an unfit, M55, medically challenged but technically competent "s" course competitor), it would be more enjoyable if there were more people to compete against. Knowing I'd beaten younger competitors, I'd perhaps get some sense of satisfaction if I came in the top few which I just don't get in my own age class.
- Sunlit Forres
- diehard
- Posts: 615
- Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:57 pm
- Location: Moravia
Re: Classes/courses
At a local Level D event, there is a Short, Medium and Long Course. When this breaks into Level D on the weekend, it gets a White, Yellow, Orange, Technical instead.
At an event last week, there was a guy who was running Medium, when he could of ran Long. Maybe they felt competitive at Medium, but not Long. Long is not Long, its just 5km.
When my fitness was suffering, I would run "S", especially on large events like JK etc.
At an event last week, there was a guy who was running Medium, when he could of ran Long. Maybe they felt competitive at Medium, but not Long. Long is not Long, its just 5km.
When my fitness was suffering, I would run "S", especially on large events like JK etc.
- Mr D
- white
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:21 am
Re: Classes/courses
If you look at the SINS results for M/W35, you could argue that there's more demand for the short courses than the long
- roadrunner
- addict
- Posts: 1059
- Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:30 pm
Re: Classes/courses
Sunlit Forres - like your idea. Think I remember the 45+ at a Swiss event.
Road runner - perhaps they are parents needing split starts?
Road runner - perhaps they are parents needing split starts?
- RS
- brown
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 5:47 pm
Re: Classes/courses
RS wrote:And don't get me started on white - the hardest course to get correct at times and often the only competitors are parents with kids too young to read!
Yeah - lets just make it even harder for kids to get started in orienteering - we have far too many of the wee buggers in the sport as it is.
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
- andypat
- god
- Posts: 2856
- Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:58 pm
- Location: Houston, we have a problem.
Re: Classes/courses
Andypat. .that was not the main point raised by RS, rather the proliferation of slightly different length courses, of similar technicality. In England this is exacerbated by the lack of really technical terrain so most courses are actually td4, so little differentiates light green and short green other than an often small length difference. Why not put on a very short technical ,a medium technical and a long technical and let people choose.
I can see the progression through yellow to orange for beginners, not necessarily children..but white does seem as RS says to be the increasing preserve of the very young, under 10, often carried or accompanied by parents. In which case they could just as easily be taken on the yellow course. For those youngsters who just want to run around,there is often a string course,and whatever happened to off string?
Incidentally the white course I planned at a recent event took 12 unique controls a load of tape for a total of 5 competitors, one a baby in arms (literally) and 4 accompanied by parents.
I have no wish to dissuade the next generation but is this the best use of a planners time?
I can see the progression through yellow to orange for beginners, not necessarily children..but white does seem as RS says to be the increasing preserve of the very young, under 10, often carried or accompanied by parents. In which case they could just as easily be taken on the yellow course. For those youngsters who just want to run around,there is often a string course,and whatever happened to off string?
Incidentally the white course I planned at a recent event took 12 unique controls a load of tape for a total of 5 competitors, one a baby in arms (literally) and 4 accompanied by parents.
I have no wish to dissuade the next generation but is this the best use of a planners time?
- johnrobinson
- green
- Posts: 301
- Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:09 pm
Re: Classes/courses
johnrobinson wrote:Incidentally the white course I planned at a recent event took 12 unique controls a load of tape for a total of 5 competitors, one a baby in arms (literally) and 4 accompanied by parents.
I have no wish to dissuade the next generation but is this the best use of a planners time?
Since it was an Yvette Baker Trophy heat, any young juniors capable of getting round a White course on their own will have been encouraged to run Yellow. Looking at the results it looks like some were not ready for it and would have been happier doing White.
A child being accompanied by their parents may still be doing the bulk of the orienteering by themselves, and White might still be the appropriate level for them to be developing their orienteering skills.
My daughter is now a W14 running Light Green, but the White course was an important stepping stone to getting there – both at the stage where she was learning to navigate when accompanied by her mum, and at the stage where she started doing courses on her own.
- frostbite
- light green
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:48 pm
Re: Classes/courses
Maybe it worked for you,but the whole point of the white course is that it should not require any orienteering skills beyond the ability to change direction when arriving at a control. From what I have seen many run around with only a cursory glance at the map,hardly the best way to build map skills.
I would be happy to hear from Coaches that white is an essential starting point,but assume most youngsters are past that point by the time they start being coached.
Besides the main point was the expectation of up to 10 or more courses offered at an event,differentiated mainly by slight variations in distance. Is this really a model that is needed. Simplifying it might attract more people to have a go at planning.
I would be happy to hear from Coaches that white is an essential starting point,but assume most youngsters are past that point by the time they start being coached.
Besides the main point was the expectation of up to 10 or more courses offered at an event,differentiated mainly by slight variations in distance. Is this really a model that is needed. Simplifying it might attract more people to have a go at planning.
- johnrobinson
- green
- Posts: 301
- Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:09 pm
Re: Classes/courses
johnrobinson wrote:Besides the main point was the expectation of up to 10 or more courses offered at an event.
No such expectation down in the SE. The vast majority of events down here (normally Sat am) have three or four courses. Many Sun am "colour coded" events will have 6 or 7 courses. Only when we get to the Level B SE League events will the number of courses generally reach 10. Perhaps there are different expectations in the Midlands?
- NeilC
- addict
- Posts: 1332
- Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:03 am
- Location: SE
Re: Classes/courses
johnrobinson wrote:I can see the progression through yellow to orange for beginners, not necessarily children..but white does seem as RS says to be the increasing preserve of the very young, under 10, often carried or accompanied by parents. In which case they could just as easily be taken on the yellow course. For those youngsters who just want to run around,there is often a string course,and whatever happened to off string?
It's some years now, but the White course was an essential stepping stone in the progression of offspring's orienteering, between the ages of 6 and 8, when he was mastering solo orienteering. The problem is that the courses higher (Yellow/Orange) are often at the bottom end of their spectrum, owing to official caution, making White appear to be less necessary than it actually is.
-
awk - god
- Posts: 3224
- Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:29 pm
- Location: Bradford
Re: Classes/courses
The white is not just about developing map skills. Our children were past the carrying stage when we introduced them to orienteering (not our fault - they were 6 and 7 when we got them), and what they learned from the white courses they did was that it is fun to be outside and do a course, the mechanics of finding a control, checking the number, punching, deciding where to go next, the satisfaction of managing this without your parent (and yes, our daughter did get lost on a white course). And, in the case of our son, overcoming high levels of anxiety linked to tall grass, thistles and dark forest.
As a planner I don't mind if kids run around and just use control placement - it is about putting a foundation in place. They can learn to read the map when they get to yellow, and learn to use a compass when they get to orange.
As a planner I don't mind if kids run around and just use control placement - it is about putting a foundation in place. They can learn to read the map when they get to yellow, and learn to use a compass when they get to orange.
- Rosine
- red
- Posts: 182
- Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:46 pm
- Location: Not mainland UK according to most couriers...
Re: Classes/courses
johnrobinson wrote:I would be happy to hear from Coaches that white is an essential starting point,but assume most youngsters are past that point by the time they start being coached.
White is an essential starting point.
(And anyway, how are 'most youngsters' going to get past that point without coaching? It may be from parents, but it's still coaching.)
-
Roger - diehard
- Posts: 652
- Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:49 pm
- Location: Oxon
Re: Classes/courses
johnrobinson wrote:Andypat. .that was not the main point raised by RS, rather the proliferation of slightly different length courses, of similar technicality.
Yeah I know - I didnt have a problem with that part of his point
johnrobinson wrote:I can see the progression through yellow to orange for beginners, not necessarily children..but white does seem as RS says to be the increasing preserve of the very young, under 10, often carried or accompanied by parents. In which case they could just as easily be taken on the yellow course. For those youngsters who just want to run around,there is often a string course,and whatever happened to off string?
John there's a huge difference between a kid at carryable age and and an under 10, some of whom (I'll cite bigjon jnr as a prime example) are perfectly capable of orange by that age. But the point is a complete newcomer to mapreading (let alone orienteering) needs the sport to be as accessible as possible, still be fun, and with a level of skill required that matches their own very limited skillset. And if you've ever run round a white with a complete beginner child you'll know that a decision point without a control would be a completely different prospect to one with. So yes, as a coach and a parent, white (properly planned) is an essential stepping stone for this sort of junior. Basically exactly what Rosine said.
johnrobinson wrote:Incidentally the white course I planned at a recent event took 12 unique controls a load of tape for a total of 5 competitors, one a baby in arms (literally) and 4 accompanied by parents.
I have no wish to dissuade the next generation but is this the best use of a planners time?
Well noone said it was easy! I think its perfectly acceptable to NOT put on a white course because its not technically possible in an area, (They had a pretty similar problem at the Scottish this weekend with the very rough and tough and liberally taped white being won in 29.5 min, 9 min slower than yellow) but if its possible then yes it is a good use of the planners time and he/she should make getting this course right their priority number 1!
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
- andypat
- god
- Posts: 2856
- Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:58 pm
- Location: Houston, we have a problem.
29 posts
• Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 87 guests