Triple Gloucester
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Triple Gloucester
What a super event today round the Gloucester Docks. The sun came out on the stunning boats and ships in the docks, the organ music floated out of the cathedral as I jogged past, the trees were full of blossom and the public seemed to enjoy the spectacle. Good course and all part of the excellent Triple Gloucester holiday weekend put on by NGOC just two weeks after BOC in the same areas - Roll on tomorrow.
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Mrs H - god
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Re: Triple Gloucester
Not really wishing to poop on the parade, but there was little route choice on Course 3. Orienteering should be more than just making the correct turns at speed. An OK course, as nothing was wrong, but little to enthrall.
Were we told that it wasn't mapped with ISSOM symbols?
Were we told that it wasn't mapped with ISSOM symbols?
- cbg
- red
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Re: Triple Gloucester
Agree with Lynden. Not sure about what CBG means!
- Tatty
- guru
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Re: Triple Gloucester
Totally agree with CBG. Very pleasant course that I enjoyed, but not too challenging as there was little route choice (as routegadget should show)
- jonesy
- string
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Re: Triple Gloucester
Were we told that it wasn't mapped with ISSOM symbols?
Tatty wrote:Agree with Lynden. Not sure about what CBG means!
At a quick glance I see...
1/ Lots of additional lines inside buildings.
2/ Many physically uncrossable fences not mapped.
3/ Black stone wall symbol.
The first is from direct conversion of digital data. It's quite time consuming to remove those lines, and for an unimportant event I wouldn't bother.
The second I find annoying because it leads to people straying into out of bounds. Everywhere else in the world uses a strong feature to show a large boundary between OOB, but another (lazy) habit in the UK is to use the thin "road-edge or step" when there's actually a huge great obstacle. You get weird effects like the carpark off Barbican road, which is surrounded by a high fence, being shown with a high fence on only three sides.
The third I think is an improvement, the ISSOM grey wall symbol is horrible and cluttering.
All these things make life easier for the mapper, and the non-ISSOM map is perfectly usable. I think its OK so play fast and loose with ISSOM standards for an unimportant event: "level-C" should tell you that, though maybe UKOL should be more picky.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Triple Gloucester
Maybe should have travelled over to N.Ireland for todays Lisburn City Race - long courses, especially for tired legs, but made it so we saw a lot of the city, and most legs had route choice, and kept interest throughout, especially nice in the Castle Gardens... Thanks to LVO
Map and video to follow.
Map and video to follow.
- nooomember
- light green
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Re: Triple Gloucester
graeme wrote:All these things make life easier for the mapper, and the non-ISSOM map is perfectly usable. I think its OK so play fast and loose with ISSOM standards for an unimportant event: "level-C" should tell you that, though maybe UKOL should be more picky.
Note that I didn't ask "Why wasn't it mapped purely with ISSOM symbols?". I agree with Graeme that a Level C event, even one as prestigious as UKOL, can use a controlled range of mapping standards but I didn't expect it this time. I do think that it is fair for the Final details to make that clear; they may have done so, but I don't remember reading so.
I did wonder what this black line with dots, possibly squares, at its corners was, and could I cross it ... or go through that gap that didn't seem to be mapped. All part of sowing doubt in the competitor's mind, of course!
What was the contour interval?
- cbg
- red
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Re: Triple Gloucester
And now it is suggested that: "certain competitors in the Mens Sprint and Junior Men’s classes may have crossed an uncrossable (i.e. forbidden to cross) wall on one particular leg".
Er no, uncrossable is NOT the same as impassable. The map legend gave the feature as "high wall - uncrossable". The ISSOM symbol definition is "Impassable wall (forbidden to cross)", regardless of height. High features in ISOM are defined as "not crossable to the average orienteer". Most M21s are physically above average orienteers! An Uncrossable Boundary, which it is not permitted to cross, shall be overprinted with a 0.7mm purple line.
We should get this right so as to be consistent.
And yes, the Final Details did state that the map was "produced to ISSOM standards". There were no instructions about impassable, or even uncrossable, features.
Er no, uncrossable is NOT the same as impassable. The map legend gave the feature as "high wall - uncrossable". The ISSOM symbol definition is "Impassable wall (forbidden to cross)", regardless of height. High features in ISOM are defined as "not crossable to the average orienteer". Most M21s are physically above average orienteers! An Uncrossable Boundary, which it is not permitted to cross, shall be overprinted with a 0.7mm purple line.
We should get this right so as to be consistent.
And yes, the Final Details did state that the map was "produced to ISSOM standards". There were no instructions about impassable, or even uncrossable, features.
- cbg
- red
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Re: Triple Gloucester
graeme wrote:though maybe UKOL should be more picky.
UKUL?
BTW Can't we persuade British Orienteering to have a link to UKUL, even if they don't own it? It features in a lot of event names in the British Orienteering fixtures now. It must be most mysterious for a newcomer.
- PG
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Re: Triple Gloucester
I'm assuming that the leg giving rise to concern was from control 52 to control 53. Several competitors took between 22 and 34 seconds, the rest took 48 seconds or more. Just after control 52 (15 on the Sprint and M16 courses) is a black line which the legend on the map gives as "Wall - DO NOT CROSS". This leaves little doubt as to what was intended. Discussing the meaning of "uncrossable" as against "impassable" doesn't add anything useful to the issue.
Interesting to note that all of the W16s and W Sprint clearly went round the wall.
I agree with the sentiments expressed by Roger Coe in the email that has gone out to all competitors.
Interesting to note that all of the W16s and W Sprint clearly went round the wall.
I agree with the sentiments expressed by Roger Coe in the email that has gone out to all competitors.
- babs f
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Re: Triple Gloucester
Definitely looks (from the symbol on the map) like a wall that must not be crossed whether mentioned in the legend or not.
- charles2
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Re: Triple Gloucester
Agreed that wall is clearly shown. From memory of the gateway that I went through, I think that it was a moderately high wall, but obviously not high enough for some.
The Organiser and Controller should have faith in their conviction and disqualify the obviously too fast times. Competitors can always protest if they believe that they have been wrongly disqualified.
I don't suppose that anyone crossed that wall deliberately knowing that it wasn't to be crossed. Unsurprisingly, some people still don't know that they can't cross everything that they can physically get over. Just as many more think that a high boundary in a forest must not be crossed. Others may not have noticed that it was a 'not to be crossed' symbol; blind I agree, but in the pressure of competition ... some apparent culprits are fast competitors; some are slow.
However the Organiser's first message suggested that they were going to disqualify people. If, for conjecture, I had realised that included me, I would just have waited for it to occur; the leg time would have been so obvious that I wouldn't feel that I had to self-disqualify. Now that no-one is disqualified, it is not highly likely that any-one will feel the need to take the moral high ground.
The Organiser and Controller should have faith in their conviction and disqualify the obviously too fast times. Competitors can always protest if they believe that they have been wrongly disqualified.
I don't suppose that anyone crossed that wall deliberately knowing that it wasn't to be crossed. Unsurprisingly, some people still don't know that they can't cross everything that they can physically get over. Just as many more think that a high boundary in a forest must not be crossed. Others may not have noticed that it was a 'not to be crossed' symbol; blind I agree, but in the pressure of competition ... some apparent culprits are fast competitors; some are slow.
However the Organiser's first message suggested that they were going to disqualify people. If, for conjecture, I had realised that included me, I would just have waited for it to occur; the leg time would have been so obvious that I wouldn't feel that I had to self-disqualify. Now that no-one is disqualified, it is not highly likely that any-one will feel the need to take the moral high ground.
- cbg
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Re: Triple Gloucester
Is there an issom symbol for Moral high ground ?
- johnrobinson
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Re: Triple Gloucester
The final details make it clear it is an ISSOM map. But then during the race you start to encounter non-ISSOM symbols, including some that look like ISOM "permitted to be crossed" symbols. What are you expected to do? In a middle / long urban race you might unfold your map to see if there is a legend to see what the mapper means - but I think it understandable that you might not on a sprint course.
The particular wall mentioned above is an ISSOM "not to be crossed" symbol so I agree you should expect competitors not to cross it - although if it was physically crossable it was such an obvious possibility on that course that I think I would have added a purple overprint. (An alternative to disqualification might be to add say 2 minutes to anyone with an unfeasibly fast time on a leg - not permitted in the rules but a pragmatic alternative to letting results stand unadjusted)
But the organisers can have no complaints if anyone climbed one of the many (ISOM) mapped High Fences - it you use that symbol, even with a slightly different line thickness, it is reasonable for competitors with the ability to cross it to do so if optimal for them, and I don't think relying on a non-standard map legend is a sufficient defence.
The particular wall mentioned above is an ISSOM "not to be crossed" symbol so I agree you should expect competitors not to cross it - although if it was physically crossable it was such an obvious possibility on that course that I think I would have added a purple overprint. (An alternative to disqualification might be to add say 2 minutes to anyone with an unfeasibly fast time on a leg - not permitted in the rules but a pragmatic alternative to letting results stand unadjusted)
But the organisers can have no complaints if anyone climbed one of the many (ISOM) mapped High Fences - it you use that symbol, even with a slightly different line thickness, it is reasonable for competitors with the ability to cross it to do so if optimal for them, and I don't think relying on a non-standard map legend is a sufficient defence.
- Snail
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Re: Triple Gloucester
I suppose it's predicable that the G. O. M. will do an ISSOM hatchet job but I don't much like my congratulatory thread hijacked for that purpose. Start your own.
I stand by my original post, well done NGOC for providing us with three lovely days of orienteering last weekend including their first ever urban race which I thought was beautifully arranged capturing the real essence of a successful urban event. I enjoyed it all and I hope they do it again - but I doubt it judging by you lot.
I stand by my original post, well done NGOC for providing us with three lovely days of orienteering last weekend including their first ever urban race which I thought was beautifully arranged capturing the real essence of a successful urban event. I enjoyed it all and I hope they do it again - but I doubt it judging by you lot.
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Mrs H - god
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