Whos responsibility?
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Whos responsibility?
At the southern champs today someone picked up a map which had not been registered correctly and therefore all circles were not aligned. When complaining at the finish she was told it was her responsibility to check. How many people check this when the start?
- batty
- off string
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Re: Whos responsibility?
Surely the controller's responsibility. I remember the controller initialling every copy on every course to prove he had checked them at one big event we printed the maps for.
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Mrs H - god
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Re: Whos responsibility?
That must be the controllers responsibility.
The competitor is responsible for checking they have picked up the correct map for their course, but can't possibly be expected to search for the two sets of registration marks and check that they line up exactly.
The competitor is responsible for checking they have picked up the correct map for their course, but can't possibly be expected to search for the two sets of registration marks and check that they line up exactly.
- pete.owens
- diehard
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Re: Whos responsibility?
The planner.
The controller is there is to make sure that the organising club are doing what they are supposed to be doing properly. The organising club cannot pass on any responsibility to the controller. When I next control a Level A event I shall be asking the planners if they have checked all the maps individually for problems, I certainly won't be checking them all myself.
The controller is there is to make sure that the organising club are doing what they are supposed to be doing properly. The organising club cannot pass on any responsibility to the controller. When I next control a Level A event I shall be asking the planners if they have checked all the maps individually for problems, I certainly won't be checking them all myself.
- NeilC
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Re: Whos responsibility?
NeilC wrote:The planner.
The controller is there is to make sure that the organising club are doing what they are supposed to be doing properly. The organising club cannot pass on any responsibility to the controller. When I next control a Level A event I shall be asking the planners if they have checked all the maps individually for problems, I certainly won't be checking them all myself.
Agreed. This also applies to ensuring that all the controls are in place before the first competitors get there.
Although, if I were the Controller, I would be gutted if either mistake had slipped through.
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Homer - diehard
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Re: Whos responsibility?
Crikey, who'd volunteer to be planner for a level A event with 1000 or 2000 competitors? In addition to all the other stuff?
We have approved map printers I think? who we should be able to trust with so much technology available, so wouldn't it be more sensible for the organising club to check a sample of say 1%. The printers are the professionals, so it should be their responsibility to check their maps, with the sanction of going off the approved list?
Probably a case for checking the 21E course maps individually though.
We have approved map printers I think? who we should be able to trust with so much technology available, so wouldn't it be more sensible for the organising club to check a sample of say 1%. The printers are the professionals, so it should be their responsibility to check their maps, with the sanction of going off the approved list?
Probably a case for checking the 21E course maps individually though.
- SeanC
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Re: Whos responsibility?
You do need to check them all individually, but you'd be surprised how quickly it goes.
I did 3000 when I planned the JK and 1500 for the British and you probably have a few hours of work. You can also get your wife/mates/kids etc to help
Not the most exciting part of being a planner though.
Even the best printers will have some issues with the overprint - so you can't just trust them
I did 3000 when I planned the JK and 1500 for the British and you probably have a few hours of work. You can also get your wife/mates/kids etc to help
Not the most exciting part of being a planner though.
Even the best printers will have some issues with the overprint - so you can't just trust them
- Arnold
- diehard
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Re: Whos responsibility?
Fair enough if that's the quality currently coming out of the professional printers.
Sounds like the printers could offer a "gold service" "we've checked each one individually service" for the level A events. That would give them an edge over their rivals. Our top planners time is better spent with the course IMHO.
Dangerous territory Arnold.
Sounds like the printers could offer a "gold service" "we've checked each one individually service" for the level A events. That would give them an edge over their rivals. Our top planners time is better spent with the course IMHO.
Arnold wrote:You can also get your wife etc to help
Dangerous territory Arnold.
- SeanC
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Re: Whos responsibility?
I'm planning at Highland 2015... I'm expecting 5500 competitors... now between myself and my co-planner were expected to take responsibility for checking the prints for 2750 maps each? I think not!
I'll be calling in the help of our controllers and we'll be sharing the responsibility. Why does it have to come down to one person or position within the organising team?
I'll be calling in the help of our controllers and we'll be sharing the responsibility. Why does it have to come down to one person or position within the organising team?
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plain lazy - blue
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Re: Whos responsibility?
Someone has to be responsible. That doesn't mean that they have to actually do the task themselves, it can of course be delegated.
Sharing the task makes perfect sense, I'm not at all convinced by the merits of sharing responsibility for what is essentially a single action.
Sharing the task makes perfect sense, I'm not at all convinced by the merits of sharing responsibility for what is essentially a single action.
- NeilC
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Re: Whos responsibility?
What does responsibility mean if you do nothing when something goes wrong?. We competitors were asked to check maps at the start. It doesn't transfer responsibility, but probably does so enough that an apology rather than a course voiding is appropriate. Which I presume is what happened. Misprinting is rare, and I'd prefer that limited volunteer time was spent on stuff like getting the flags out in time.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Whos responsibility?
One of the problems is knowing what to look for, which can be different depending on how you are printing. Experienced planners/controllers will know, but I suspect many don’t, especially as most local event maps are printed on laser printers.
I believe (and no doubt Nopesporters will correct me if I’m wrong):
Does anyone have a contract with their printer which includes quality? If we don't, maybe when we get quotes we should ask printers what reject rate is acceptable and hopefully negotiate a contract which involves a lower payment if that rate is exceeded.
I believe (and no doubt Nopesporters will correct me if I’m wrong):
- If digital printing (which will usually be laser printing as inkjet printing is not waterproof) then registration checking is unnecessary as the paper only goes through the printer once. Problems are more likely to be a general degradation as a toner gets low, stripes as a drum starts to wear and (rarely) paper going into the printer crooked or folded, but this will usually still result in a usable map.
- For offset litho then the paper goes through the printer multiple times. Problems result when if one or multiple sheets are slightly differently aligned in one of the passes. A real difficulty is when paper changes shape (stretches) between one pass and the next as it can be registered correctly at one end of the map, but out of registration at the other. This has happened on waterproof paper in the past; I haven’t heard of any instances recently.
SeanC wrote:We have approved map printers I think? who we should be able to trust with so much technology available, ........ The printers are the professionals, so it should be their responsibility to check their maps, with the sanction of going off the approved list?
Does anyone have a contract with their printer which includes quality? If we don't, maybe when we get quotes we should ask printers what reject rate is acceptable and hopefully negotiate a contract which involves a lower payment if that rate is exceeded.
- PG
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Re: Whos responsibility?
The problem is that it's not just 1 in every X maps which is "clearly wrong" (such that a competitor could easily see it). It's that quite a few of them are borderline and someone has to decide whether they're OK and where the line is.
In my experience of checking maps you can start to see patterns where the registration mark slowly shifts in one direction and then you need to decide what to do
Of course it's a job that would best be avoided entirely (as it has no value added) but for offset litho I'm not sure any printer will guarantee you perfect service? Maybe in the long run the laser quality will be so good we no longer need offset, hence doing away with this problem?
In my experience of checking maps you can start to see patterns where the registration mark slowly shifts in one direction and then you need to decide what to do
Of course it's a job that would best be avoided entirely (as it has no value added) but for offset litho I'm not sure any printer will guarantee you perfect service? Maybe in the long run the laser quality will be so good we no longer need offset, hence doing away with this problem?
- Arnold
- diehard
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Re: Whos responsibility?
AFAIK there was 1(one) map in 1000(one thousand) that had a bad register
(but there may have been more that were less bad (I know -- terrible grammar)).
Not an excuse, but with checks before the maps were put in the boxes it is
easy to get "error blind" when going through them. It is extremely unfortunate for
competitor who "found" the dodgy map that managed to slip through the process
but please try to remember that we are only human!!
(but there may have been more that were less bad (I know -- terrible grammar)).
Not an excuse, but with checks before the maps were put in the boxes it is
easy to get "error blind" when going through them. It is extremely unfortunate for
competitor who "found" the dodgy map that managed to slip through the process
but please try to remember that we are only human!!
- MIE
- green
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Re: Whos responsibility?
I think everyone here understands that, and obviously there needs to be a widely understood protocol when it comes to offset printed maps.
I am rather more interested in the way the problem was dealt with, was the unfortunate lady really told it was her responsibility to check that the map was correctly printed? Or was a fulsome apology issued and her (no doubt hefty) entry fee refunded? I have only ever been told to check that I have picked up the correct map - if I need to check something else then how do I know the map is correctly printed?
I am rather more interested in the way the problem was dealt with, was the unfortunate lady really told it was her responsibility to check that the map was correctly printed? Or was a fulsome apology issued and her (no doubt hefty) entry fee refunded? I have only ever been told to check that I have picked up the correct map - if I need to check something else then how do I know the map is correctly printed?
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Mrs H - god
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