Excellent, cheers Sean. I'll set one up and post a link here, so everyone can join.
Mike
Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
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Re: Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
MikeShires wrote:But like I said before, replacing older competitors with new ones (without wishing to make competitors sounding too much like commodities!) is natural evolution for any sport, or any activity for that matter. It's inevitable that people leave a sport.
I don't think you can compare orienteering with any sport, especially the competitive/serious side of it. It is special in many ways...
1. You can't do it anywhere, the experience differs greatly from region to region in the UK. It can often mean long travelling distances.
2. It is intellectual, it is not uncommon that born & bred orienteers never reach full competency let alone virgins, even after years.
3. It can be very uncomfortable, physically tough, terrible weather etc.
4. It very often means getting up early on a Sunday.
5. It is seriously uncool, or it has that image anyhow.
In my experience new members that have not been born and bred through the sport virtually never end up serious about orienteering, they just have fun (and nothing wrong with that!).
With orienteering in particular IMO it is of utmost importance to retain those members conditioned from a very early age. It is no coincidence that the more serious members tend to have offspring that end up getting serious about orienteering. It is much better to have serious parents dragging lazy, self-important, video game-addicted, millenium generation, first world children along to every event possible to the point they need to find controls every weekend like they need to eat/sleep, much better than the children persuading the parents that they want to do another string course - "No not today son, the weather isn't very good is it."
MikeShires wrote:I don't really agree it's gambling, for the reasons set out above. To me, gambling is where there is a risk of losing as well as winning.
If we go back to my original post...
schnitzer wrote:I'm not sure there's much point in marketing "proper" orienteering is there?
schnitzer wrote:why is there this constant need to market orienteering and get more people doing it?
I got back lots of reasons why we want to get more people doing orienteering and those relating to "proper" orienteering are not likely to be achieved by marketing IMO. My point with "gambling" was that if you set out to...
1. increase decent competition
2. increase the pool of potential elites
3. replace Big Jon with someone equally as capable
by marketing to newbies then you will probably lose a lot of time, energy and money.
However everything is ok because you understand that by marketing you are simply trying to...
Spookster wrote:be sustainable.
...and if one or two of the "new" people eventually becomes "decent" or has a child that eventually does then that's just a bonus. You will try to guarantee that the classic distance in a forest doesn't die and the sport doesn't become fully urban/long orange by some other means.
P.S. I'm really enjoying this thread.
I'm gonna keep it alive, and continue to be, flying like an eagle to my destiny.
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schnitzer - white
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Re: Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
schnitzer wrote:...and if one or two of the "new" people eventually becomes "decent" or has a child that eventually does then that's just a bonus. You will try to guarantee that the classic distance in a forest doesn't die and the sport doesn't become fully urban/long orange by some other means.
And this is where the horde of long orange runners or the street runners from UrbanO who have learned a few skills and have had some success come into contact with the club's coaches and get inspired to learn even more and to orienteer in the wilds of Scotland on intricate TD5 courses..... and eventually take on the M21E 18.5km black courses..... and WIN!
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Re: Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
The average family has something like 2 children - so if 2 orienteering parents get their 2 kids keen on the sport and then eventually drop out themselves, there hasn't been any increase in numbers. (Of course, it could get better in the next generation, but that's a long while to wait ... !)
More to the point, aren't the majority of active orienteers too old to have children? So if we rely on this approach alone, there's going to be a fall-off in numbers before they start to grow.
I do think there's a need to get young adults introduced to the sport, and I agree that the "urban event" route is probably not enough on its own. When I started, you would probably be advised to do a yellow/orange/red course, and while that's ideal for juniors it may not be inspiring for adults, who may well find following line features on a map pretty easy and boring. Maybe we need some sort of short technical course, but with good catching features so that they can't get too lost, because that too can be off-putting; then they'd get a taster of what real forest orienteering is like, but with a more manageable level of challenge - rather like someone might try a 10k before having a go at a marathon.
More to the point, aren't the majority of active orienteers too old to have children? So if we rely on this approach alone, there's going to be a fall-off in numbers before they start to grow.
I do think there's a need to get young adults introduced to the sport, and I agree that the "urban event" route is probably not enough on its own. When I started, you would probably be advised to do a yellow/orange/red course, and while that's ideal for juniors it may not be inspiring for adults, who may well find following line features on a map pretty easy and boring. Maybe we need some sort of short technical course, but with good catching features so that they can't get too lost, because that too can be off-putting; then they'd get a taster of what real forest orienteering is like, but with a more manageable level of challenge - rather like someone might try a 10k before having a go at a marathon.
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Re: Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
Isn't that called Light Green ?
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Re: Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
roadrunner wrote: - rather like someone might try a 10k before having a go at a marathon.
But then it is not likely that they will do, either a 10km or a marathon, as a first go. They may have turned up for a local 5km or fun run or a Saturday morning Park Race.
So, orienteering has to have a structure that invites hundreds of people to try 'pseudo' orienteering, discover the basic nature of it, electronic timing etc, and then to be introduced to the real thing by role models who can inspire.
You can't just turn up in trainers and run through forest terrain, read map detail, and locate TD5 control sites..... just like that. If you could then the sport would be chock-a-block with great orienteers. There needs to be a TD3 route into the sport for adults in general..... something with an interesting title/name (not novice!).... and at an event/fixture where they are the main focus of the activity. We are too focussed on looking after the TD5 'animal'!
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Re: Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
Orienteers are generally very wedded to the colour coded format which is generally poor for adult newcomers or those that just want a less technical run.
I do agree that targeted TD3 events should be part of our offering, but we could easily do this at the colour coded events as well by:
- always having a score course
- renaming 'light orange' as 'runners' and removing the guidelines for this course. Let planners work out what appeals best to their local market. This course might be longer and technically simpler than long orange but going through the interesting features of the area.
This would give a pathway in to technical forest orienteering from the more occasional td3 only events like trail challenges and park events
I do agree that targeted TD3 events should be part of our offering, but we could easily do this at the colour coded events as well by:
- always having a score course
- renaming 'light orange' as 'runners' and removing the guidelines for this course. Let planners work out what appeals best to their local market. This course might be longer and technically simpler than long orange but going through the interesting features of the area.
This would give a pathway in to technical forest orienteering from the more occasional td3 only events like trail challenges and park events
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Re: Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
RJ wrote:and then to be introduced to the real thing by role models who can inspire.
Which is why it's so immensely helpful when the elite of our sport show an interest in the grass roots. The Scottish Elite Development Squad are coming to Moravian's Level D at Findhorn this Sat where they've invited locals to join in with their relay training beforehand. (for Sean C - the 3 courses at the event itself are called "Short" "Long" and "Long Technical")
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Re: Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
I completely agree with RJ and Sunlit Forres above.
Going back to Schnitzer's last post, I think I understand now. You're purely referring to "recruiting" more elite athletes rather than more orienteers in general. That's where our focus differs. As a club publicity officer, my role is to get more people to events. As mentioned before, they can be runners, families, more women, children, 50+ etc. Actually making these new people (esp the young adults and children) top orienteers is really a subsequent stage in the process. I don't believe that you can suddenly "recruit" lots of world class orienteers just by marketing - like others say, it takes years of training (and that would be the same for any sport). But the first stage is to actually get people to events - after all, all existing elite orienteers started somewhere.
Just by way of example of marketing, TVOC had a Level D local event yesterday. We had over 200 people there and literally half the runs were by newcomers (IND competitors). In terms of numbers, we had at least 100 complete newbies, and probably quite a few more than that as several went round in groups and pairs. The organiser even tailored the courses slightly to take advantage of the local Parkrun and put on a Long Orange course - which several of the Parkrunners came and tried (after it was promoted on the local Parkrun Facebook page). My publicity expenditure for this event was £24. Most of these came from Facebook advertising (the £24 expenditure), with promoted posts and adverts targeted towards the 880 people who already like our page and also people aged 20-50 who like running within 10 miles of Slough and High Wycombe (the nearest towns). We also had listings on various websites, a listing in the local paper, a mention on the local radio, a listing in The Times Weekend (yes, THE Times (!) which I only heard about today!) and it was promoted on Twitter. The vast majority of newcomers indicated they came because they saw the event advertised on Facebook. 749 people interacted with the Facebook event page (https://www.facebook.com/events/945062042176959) and we had almost 1,400 clicks on the event details during the past week (see screengrab attached).
So this shows that there are loads of people out there who would come along to events... and even if you go by the law of averages, some of these will keep coming back and turning into very decent competitors. However, I agree that training elite athletes is a different focus to attracting "general" newcomers.
Going back to Schnitzer's last post, I think I understand now. You're purely referring to "recruiting" more elite athletes rather than more orienteers in general. That's where our focus differs. As a club publicity officer, my role is to get more people to events. As mentioned before, they can be runners, families, more women, children, 50+ etc. Actually making these new people (esp the young adults and children) top orienteers is really a subsequent stage in the process. I don't believe that you can suddenly "recruit" lots of world class orienteers just by marketing - like others say, it takes years of training (and that would be the same for any sport). But the first stage is to actually get people to events - after all, all existing elite orienteers started somewhere.
Just by way of example of marketing, TVOC had a Level D local event yesterday. We had over 200 people there and literally half the runs were by newcomers (IND competitors). In terms of numbers, we had at least 100 complete newbies, and probably quite a few more than that as several went round in groups and pairs. The organiser even tailored the courses slightly to take advantage of the local Parkrun and put on a Long Orange course - which several of the Parkrunners came and tried (after it was promoted on the local Parkrun Facebook page). My publicity expenditure for this event was £24. Most of these came from Facebook advertising (the £24 expenditure), with promoted posts and adverts targeted towards the 880 people who already like our page and also people aged 20-50 who like running within 10 miles of Slough and High Wycombe (the nearest towns). We also had listings on various websites, a listing in the local paper, a mention on the local radio, a listing in The Times Weekend (yes, THE Times (!) which I only heard about today!) and it was promoted on Twitter. The vast majority of newcomers indicated they came because they saw the event advertised on Facebook. 749 people interacted with the Facebook event page (https://www.facebook.com/events/945062042176959) and we had almost 1,400 clicks on the event details during the past week (see screengrab attached).
So this shows that there are loads of people out there who would come along to events... and even if you go by the law of averages, some of these will keep coming back and turning into very decent competitors. However, I agree that training elite athletes is a different focus to attracting "general" newcomers.
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Re: Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
Plus, if that's the case, then it's the role of club marketing to change that. Facebook is a good example, plus make all publicity material enticing and more "cool" - I know design is a subjective issue, but here's our latest flyer (nice glossy A6 flyer, thick card - only £29 for 1,000 (incidentally a fraction of the cost of those flyers from the Print Portal!). The aim is to grab people's attention and MAKE them want to come, and get away from the technical jargon and any images of older orienteers/pyjama suits etc...!schnitzer wrote:5. It is seriously uncool, or it has that image anyhow.
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Re: Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
MikeShires wrote:In terms of numbers, we had at least 100 complete newbies, and probably quite a few more than that as several went round in groups and pairs. .... Most of these came from Facebook advertising
Just to add to this, I have had two new 'likes' today for the Berkshire Orienteers FB site from people who appear to live in Berkshire and are down in the results as IND at the TVOC event. I am making contact with them to try to get them interested in our event next Saturday. Thanks Mike!
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Re: Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
Hi David, no problem! I think our "meeters and greeters" were promoting the forthcoming BKO and HH events, so I hope some of them come along!
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Re: Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
RJ wrote:roadrunner wrote: - rather like someone might try a 10k before having a go at a marathon.
But then it is not likely that they will do, either a 10km or a marathon, as a first go. They may have turned up for a local 5km or fun run or a Saturday morning Park Race.
I'm not sure I agree - my first race was a 10k (although parkrun didn't exist then) and quite a few people enter a half or even a marathon as their first - and possibly only - race. A few of those "get the bug" and become more serious runners.
RJ wrote:You can't just turn up in trainers and run through forest terrain, read map detail, and locate TD5 control sites..... just like that. If you could then the sport would be chock-a-block with great orienteers. There needs to be a TD3 route into the sport for adults in general..... something with an interesting title/name (not novice!).... and at an event/fixture where they are the main focus of the activity. We are too focussed on looking after the TD5 'animal'!
Again, I don't agree completely - it depends where you're coming from. If you're first and foremost a runner, then a TD3 course is probably what you want. But if you come from a hill-walking background, as I did, then that would be a bit boring. My first "real" course was a green (no light green in those days) in the New Forest, and while it probably wasn't TD5 it was certainly one of the more technically difficult greens I ran. Actually it was more walked than ran, but the point is that it was the navigational challenge that appealed. So yes, a good light green course might be the answer.
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Re: Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
DavidJ wrote:MikeShires wrote:In terms of numbers, we had at least 100 complete newbies, and probably quite a few more than that as several went round in groups and pairs. .... Most of these came from Facebook advertising
Just to add to this, I have had two new 'likes' today for the Berkshire Orienteers FB site from people who appear to live in Berkshire and are down in the results as IND at the TVOC event. I am making contact with them to try to get them interested in our event next Saturday. Thanks Mike!
And another!
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Re: Where, oh where is BOF's PR Department?
RJ wrote:And this is where the horde of long orange runners or the street runners from UrbanO who have learned a few skills and have had some success come into contact with the club's coaches and get inspired to learn even more and to orienteer in the wilds of Scotland on intricate TD5 courses..... and eventually take on the M21E 18.5km black courses..... and WIN!
Commendable optimism... actually that goes out to everyone on this thread - I just can't bring you down, it's fantastic.
roadrunner wrote:The average family has something like 2 children - so if 2 orienteering parents get their 2 kids keen on the sport and then eventually drop out themselves, there hasn't been any increase in numbers. (Of course, it could get better in the next generation, but that's a long while to wait ... !)
I never said that taking efforts (of which keeping the parents serious is only 1 example) to make sure that children of orienteering parents stay keen on the sport into their adult life would necessarily increase the numbers. It would be really handy though whilst other efforts are taken specifically in order to increase the numbers if the serious side of the sport didn't continue to reduce in size like it has over the last 30 years.
RJ wrote:We are too focussed on looking after the TD5 'animal'!
Yes, ironic isn't it.
Sunlit Forres wrote:Which is why it's so immensely helpful when the elite of our sport show an interest in the grass roots. The Scottish Elite Development Squad are coming to Moravian's Level D at Findhorn this Sat where they've invited locals to join in with their relay training beforehand. (for Sean C - the 3 courses at the event itself are called "Short" "Long" and "Long Technical")
This is great - so Mike's tailor-made marketing gets the newcomers to the events, then these people get a tailor-made environment to keep them coming. Now, what about a tailor-made environment for the current serious members? Read on for my definition of serious...
MikeShires wrote:Going back to Schnitzer's last post, I think I understand now. You're purely referring to "recruiting" more elite athletes rather than more orienteers in general.
Sorry but no. I know I metioned increasing the pool of elite athletes in my last post but IMO that is way down the line. Anyone who read my comments on a thread a few months back knows that I believe that orienteers at the most serious end of the scale should simply base themselves outside of the UK and take advantage of somewhere not only where serious orienteering currently thrives but somewhere that also has world-class terrain in abundance.
When I say serious I simpy mean serious, competent competitors. They don't have to be less than 35 years old, 45 even, 55 even. They don't have to be able to run a 10km in 35mins, 40 even, 45 even. Anyone that understands what a clean run is and goes to an orienteering event and targets it. People that understand contours at pace. People that feel that they absolutely must go to the JK or S6Days because they know that there will be the best terrain, best courses and most number of entrants in UK orienteering. People that whilst enjoying urban races a lot, prefer classic long distance in the terrain.
MikeShires wrote:I don't believe that you can suddenly "recruit" lots of world class orienteers just by marketing - like others say, it takes years of training (and that would be the same for any sport).
I don't believe it would be the same for any sport, not at the elite level or at serious levels below that. For example, a 30 something who has a good physical build for running would be significantly more guaranteed to get to a serious 10km road running level in a few years than in orienteering. So much more motivation is required to progress in orienteering.
Just out of interest, is anyone still trying to change the way the physical education system works and expose kids without orienteering parents when they are really young AND make it really cool? I know a lot of existing orienteers are more inclined to try to get a place at Sheffield or Edinburgh universities. Perhaps we also need college and sixth form orienteering clubs? Perhaps we need PS lessons in normal schools where kids play Catching Features on tablets for 30 mins before doing the same course in real life e.g. in the school grounds, adjacent parkland. I know GG has mapped quite a few schools - are those maps being used regularly?
I'm gonna keep it alive, and continue to be, flying like an eagle to my destiny.
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