I've been teaching my wife to orienteer recently and have tried to make use of permanent oreinteering courses when there are no suitable events for us to get to. The problem I have been having is that when I get to the area no-one knows where I can get the map. We visited 3 different country parks a few weeks ago before we found one that knew where the map was.
I notice a few clubs provide PDF copies free on their websites which seems ideal. I approached the keeper of the maps (sounds very grand!) at my club (that will remain nameless) who has said that we can't do it because it is illegal and breeches copyright etc..
Can anyone give me any insight on this?
Permanent Orienteering maps
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Re: Permanent Orienteering maps
From the Routeadget site:
" ... One of the issues is the use of maps based on Ordnance Survey data. A licence fee of £65.70 per year is payable to the OS for displaying maps on websites ..."
" ... One of the issues is the use of maps based on Ordnance Survey data. A licence fee of £65.70 per year is payable to the OS for displaying maps on websites ..."
- Nimby
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Re: Permanent Orienteering maps
There's a very informative website about these things.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10410
As you see from there, the OS has been keen to claim copyright over all manner of things (including "north"). I guess there's nothing to stop them claiming it, but I can't find any evidence of them attempting trying to defend such ludicrous claims in court. Indeed, flagrant North-abuse continues unpunished.
http://www.braidburnvalleypark.org.uk/orienteering/
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10410
As you see from there, the OS has been keen to claim copyright over all manner of things (including "north"). I guess there's nothing to stop them claiming it, but I can't find any evidence of them attempting trying to defend such ludicrous claims in court. Indeed, flagrant North-abuse continues unpunished.
http://www.braidburnvalleypark.org.uk/orienteering/
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graeme - god
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Re: Permanent Orienteering maps
I hadn't realised that there was a £67.50 fee. This doesn't sound a great deal however. Is this for all maps or for each individual map?
I'd be astonished if they ever actually came after anyone for it.
Other clubs seem to think they won't too:
www.aire.org.uk/club/cluborg/Pocs.asp
www.londonorienteering.co.uk/permanent-courses
I'd be astonished if they ever actually came after anyone for it.
Other clubs seem to think they won't too:
www.aire.org.uk/club/cluborg/Pocs.asp
www.londonorienteering.co.uk/permanent-courses
- ianf
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Re: Permanent Orienteering maps
Nimby wrote:From the Routeadget site:
" ... One of the issues is the use of maps based on Ordnance Survey data. A licence fee of £65.70 per year is payable to the OS for displaying maps on websites ..."
In addition:
Clubs use POC Course sales as an income stream to help fund the upkeep of
the course(s).
(Public bodies can be quite happy to have a POC on "their" land but don't
want the "hassle" of maintenance).
BO like to have the "usage" figures so that they can increase the participation
count and the easiest way for clubs to do this is to log maps sold to vendors.
(Local Councils and the NT (to name but 2) will usually keep track of where
paid for stock is whereas "free" stock is not looked after).
BO have an agreement with OS (or more pointedly the OS have imposed an
agreement on BO) about royalty payments almost regardless of the source of
the base materials (see http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/page/mappers ,
about half way down the "page", heading "Mapping and Ordnance Survey") .
- MIE
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Re: Permanent Orienteering maps
MIE wrote:BO have an agreement with OS (or more pointedly the OS have imposed an
agreement on BO) about royalty payments almost regardless of the source of
the base materials (see http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/page/mappers ,
about half way down the "page", heading "Mapping and Ordnance Survey") .
But that agreement predates the OS OpenData initiative.
OS website wrote:The OS OpenData licence allows you to:You are therefore able to use the OS OpenData datasets in any way and for any purpose. We simply ask that you:
- copy, distribute and transmit the data;
- adapt the data; and
- exploit the data commercially, whether by sub-licensing it, combining it with other data, or including it in your own product or application.
- Acknowledge the copyright and the source of the data by including the appropriate attribution statement listed in the OpenData Licence.
- Include the same acknowledgement requirement in any sub-licences of the data that you grant, and a requirement that any further sub-licences do the same.
- Ensure that you do not use the data in a way that suggests Ordnance Survey endorses you or your use of the data.
- Ensure that you do not misrepresent the data or its source.
So I could use StreetView to get a 1:10,000 georeferenced base map as a pretty good starting point, and add 10m contours from Terrain 50. In theory this now falls entirely within the OpenData license so you no longer need the BOF/OS copyright statement. Any map produced this way could be given away, sold, published or put on a website (including Routegadget) without any payment to the OS as long as the relevant attribution statement appeared somewhere. Has anyone actually gone this way yet?
It's not how you would produce an "important" map, but it is enough for most of our Saturday League areas, especially if you can then add Lidar data.
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Simon E - green
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Re: Permanent Orienteering maps
I would argue that POC maps are a very poor
choice as a source of income.
The grassroots in my opinion should be heavily subsidised and anything that can be done to increase participation should be seen as a good thing. Making maps free and more importantly easy to find would surely help?
choice as a source of income.
The grassroots in my opinion should be heavily subsidised and anything that can be done to increase participation should be seen as a good thing. Making maps free and more importantly easy to find would surely help?
- ianf
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Re: Permanent Orienteering maps
I've always thought that making free downloadable PDF's is the way to go.
It's never convenient to have to find a place open to buy maps or order them in advance for delivery through the post.
The income from selling maps is probably way less than the volunteer time spent printing them and then distributing them.
It's too easy to "steal" copies by photocopying ones they already have anyway, so you can't control the distribution of them or the copyright anyway.
Make it easier for people to try it and you might get more of them.
It's never convenient to have to find a place open to buy maps or order them in advance for delivery through the post.
The income from selling maps is probably way less than the volunteer time spent printing them and then distributing them.
It's too easy to "steal" copies by photocopying ones they already have anyway, so you can't control the distribution of them or the copyright anyway.
Make it easier for people to try it and you might get more of them.
- Paul Frost
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Re: Permanent Orienteering maps
Sound like British Orienteering need to contact the OS and clarify where we stand now with the OS OpenData initiative being launched and the old agreement.
It's also possible to make maps available to download without them being viewable on a website. You could set up an autoresponder email that has the map as an attachment.
It's also possible to make maps available to download without them being viewable on a website. You could set up an autoresponder email that has the map as an attachment.
- Paul Frost
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Re: Permanent Orienteering maps
If you're thinking of revamping your club's Permanent Orienteering Course section on your website, it's worth looking at the Devon Orienteering Club website as an example of how to do it. Lovely clear instructions, pdf map plus recent news etc. Eg. http://www.devonorienteering.co.uk/poc/ ... thy-forest
I'm not sure how you measure participation, I'm printing 15 maps for the friends that are doing orienteering * on our group holiday in late dec from my one download. It's worth encouraging visitors centres to sell them, though I agree with Paul's philosophy, clubs could/should probably give printed copies away free, and see them as a marketing opportunity.
* if I can get them out of the house before it gets dark
I'm not sure how you measure participation, I'm printing 15 maps for the friends that are doing orienteering * on our group holiday in late dec from my one download. It's worth encouraging visitors centres to sell them, though I agree with Paul's philosophy, clubs could/should probably give printed copies away free, and see them as a marketing opportunity.
* if I can get them out of the house before it gets dark
- SeanC
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Re: Permanent Orienteering maps
I agree that it would be best for these to be available to download - seems much more likely to get people to go out and give it a go. Banner ad on website something like "try for free, in your own time at your local country park"
If legally that's not possible, and it's really essential that numbers are tracked would it not be better to have a central repository of maps where you could pay a fee to download and print off? - maybe on the BOF website, linked from club websites. I imagine the cost to set this up might be more than any income gained though.
If legally that's not possible, and it's really essential that numbers are tracked would it not be better to have a central repository of maps where you could pay a fee to download and print off? - maybe on the BOF website, linked from club websites. I imagine the cost to set this up might be more than any income gained though.
- Jayne
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Re: Permanent Orienteering maps
With an email request for a copy of the map you could ask how many maps you intend to print or any other questions. You can see an example of how I did it for MAROC here:
http://www.marocscotland.org.uk/home/pe ... nnich-poc/
but please don't submit the form as that will just flood MAROC with loads of crap data.
In this case the autoresponder email contains an encrypted link to a webpage that reveals the files that can be downloaded.
I don't know how successful this has been for MAROC or how many requests they get.
The big issue is how you promote it so that people know it's available. On the sites I've built for clubs where they have POC's I often link to them from where the next event is promoted; "Can't wait? Try one of our Permanent Orienteering Courses".
http://www.marocscotland.org.uk/home/pe ... nnich-poc/
but please don't submit the form as that will just flood MAROC with loads of crap data.
In this case the autoresponder email contains an encrypted link to a webpage that reveals the files that can be downloaded.
I don't know how successful this has been for MAROC or how many requests they get.
The big issue is how you promote it so that people know it's available. On the sites I've built for clubs where they have POC's I often link to them from where the next event is promoted; "Can't wait? Try one of our Permanent Orienteering Courses".
- Paul Frost
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Re: Permanent Orienteering maps
Just an observation ... when our POC maps are ordered and printed, they are done on a laser printer and waterproof paper. I'd guess that very few downloaders of PDFs will have such facilities available, so some aspects of their experience will be worse.
- Sloop
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Re: Permanent Orienteering maps
Sloop wrote:...so some aspects of their experience will be worse.
But at least they are guaranteed the opportunity to have an experience, compared to the hit & miss of finding somewhere open to buy a map.
Apparently some time off in the distant past orienteering maps were printed on normal paper and had to be put in a plastic bag to protect them from dampness. People also had to mark up their own course with a red pen (if they had one). It makes you wonder how the sport ever took off with such primitive methods.
Seriously, these maps are likely to be relatively simple, and a home inkjet or colour laser is quite capable of producing a readable map. You can still offer a high quality service at a price if you want to, in addition to a free PDF.
Orienteering clubs need to adapt to the new digital age, just as the film & music industry have learnt, it's almost impossible to protect copyrighted stuff being copied and distributed, we need to let go of the thought that we must protect our maps from being copied, all we are doing is making it hard for Joe Public to get a map and try our sport.
- Paul Frost
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Re: Permanent Orienteering maps
The issue seems to be more what the OS will allow than what clubs want to do. I still don't understand how the OS can claim copyright on a map that isn't made using their material, for example one based on Google Earth and/or Openstreetmap. As the algorithm for converting lat and long to a grid reference is public, I don't see how they can claim that including a grid reference infringes their copyright either, unless they can prove that it was generated using their material. Aren't we innocent until proven guilty?
If those restrictions still apply, wouldn't one solution be for BOF to host all the maps (and pay a single fee like Routegadget does), and the for clubs to link to them from their own pages? That would also enable BOF to keep track of the numbers downloaded if it wanted.
If those restrictions still apply, wouldn't one solution be for BOF to host all the maps (and pay a single fee like Routegadget does), and the for clubs to link to them from their own pages? That would also enable BOF to keep track of the numbers downloaded if it wanted.
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