Wasn't the sensible solution in the past to have M21 Long 1 and M21 Long 2?
POM deals with this by having Super Elite and Elite classes, entry based on the World Ranking rules. Quite simple really.
This would certainly reduce the amount of elite course tourism that we have seen in recent years.
JK2015
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Re: JK2015
And elsewhere we are told which body has authority to change the rules for a given event. This is what has happened in the past - particularly when the numbers for elite have only been say 20% over capacity. For a larger excess then an extra course will be needed.
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Re: JK2015
mharky wrote:Wasn't the sensible solution in the past to have M21 Long 1 and M21 Long 2?
POM deals with this by having Super Elite and Elite classes, entry based on the World Ranking rules. Quite simple really.
This would certainly reduce the amount of elite course tourism that we have seen in recent years.
It was indeed. Although last time I remember an M21 Long 2 was JK Dolgledr (1998??)back when I was still an M21. However, here we are talking M21E not M21L hence you can't have 2 parallel courses like 21L 1 and 2 imho. Options: Extend start window, reduce start interval or kick lower ranked people to 21L - Option 3 would seem favourite!!!
Here in Italy you have to score enough ranking points to qualify to run Elite at the National Events. didn't we used to have qualification for elite in the UK?
I plead guilty to quite a lot of elite course tourism in the past and whilst it was great fun it probably should not have been allowed.
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madmike - guru
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Re: JK2015
madmike wrote:However, here we are talking M21E not M21L hence you can't have 2 parallel courses like 21L 1 and 2 imho.
Why not? Isn't that precisely what POM does with M21SuperE and M21E, and what O-Ringen does with Elit and Elit 2?
The JK is all about running a proper technical middle race followed by a proper-length classic/long race (plus the sprint and the relay). I don't really care whether or not I am on the same course as Thierry, but I have very little interest in turning up to run two slightly-shorter-than-normal Black courses.
Last edited by Scott on Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Scott - god
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Re: JK2015
NeilC wrote:And elsewhere we are told which body has authority to change the rules for a given event. This is what has happened in the past - particularly when the numbers for elite have only been say 20% over capacity. For a larger excess then an extra course will be needed.
In that case I suppose that does seem sensible.
Except perhaps when you start to reach the limits of what is sensible when tinkering with the start interval/window, and the temptation is to avoid the hassle of selection and carry on tinkering.
When was the last time selection was necessary at either JK or BOC?
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Re: JK2015
frostbite wrote:When was the last time selection was necessary at either JK or BOC?
I was kicked off M21E at JK 2008 - I think that might be the most recent occasion, barring the issue with M18s at the JK Middle which has been resolved now by giving the organisers the option of a separate M18/20E Middle course.
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Re: JK2015
If a Long class (where there is no elite class for that age group) is oversubscribed then the suggested approach is that two parallel long courses are provided, with selection used to determine who runs L1, and the class winner deemed to come from that course.
So kicking some people down to the L course if an Elite course is oversubscribed does seem a little odd - it is the equivalent of pushing some people to the S course if the L course is oversubscribed.
So kicking some people down to the L course if an Elite course is oversubscribed does seem a little odd - it is the equivalent of pushing some people to the S course if the L course is oversubscribed.
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Re: JK2015
Scott wrote:madmike wrote:However, here we are talking M21E not M21L hence you can't have 2 parallel courses like 21L 1 and 2 imho.
Why not? Isn't that precisely what POM does with M21SuperE and M21E, and what O-Ringen does with Elit and Elit 2?
Yeah OK but what's in a name - for what we are talking about here, POM SuperE = E and POM E = L, i.e. Superelite is the real elite and people will be downgraded to (or enter by choice) long even if it is called elite.
M21L and M21L 2 were 2 separate but equal courses with runners randomly distributed between them i.e. the field in 2 was no worse than 1. N.B. there was also an eite course above M21L 1 and 2 in those days...........
What we are talking about here is kicking people out of a higher class into a lower one. I am sorry if I did not make that clear Scott but that is why I disagreed with Mharky.
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Re: JK2015
Snail wrote:If a Long class (where there is no elite class for that age group) is oversubscribed then the suggested approach is that two parallel long courses are provided, with selection used to determine who runs L1, and the class winner deemed to come from that course.
.
And in your example L1 bcomes defacto elite and L2 is defacto L - no?
If there is an elite Course than as Becks once said (not an exact quote, sorry if it is wrong Becks): I was the best of the people who were too lazy to run the longest course in my age group
-so who cares who wins L2 in your example???
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Re: JK2015
That isn't the point. No one cares who wins L2.
The difference is that anyone kicked off an L1 course still gets to run a similar length L2 course. But at present anyone kicked off an E course has to run a 25% shorter course - and people like Scott think that isn't worthwhile.
The difference is that anyone kicked off an L1 course still gets to run a similar length L2 course. But at present anyone kicked off an E course has to run a 25% shorter course - and people like Scott think that isn't worthwhile.
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Re: JK2015
Snail wrote:That isn't the point. No one cares who wins L2.
The difference is that anyone kicked off an L1 course still gets to run a similar length L2 course. But at present anyone kicked off an E course has to run a 25% shorter course - and people like Scott think that isn't worthwhile.
Ok can see that
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Re: JK2015
Relevant WRE rules ...
• shall be Open Events
• at events with a large entry where the organiser splits elite runners into two courses, it may be possible to submit the results of both courses for World Ranking purposes.
Neils, the relevant JK rule is:
1.2.2 If the Championships are designated as a World Ranking Event (WRE) by the IOF then IOF Rules will apply.
It means, inter alia, that the Day 3 start list depends on world ranking, not Day 2 performance.
• shall be Open Events
• at events with a large entry where the organiser splits elite runners into two courses, it may be possible to submit the results of both courses for World Ranking purposes.
Neils, the relevant JK rule is:
1.2.2 If the Championships are designated as a World Ranking Event (WRE) by the IOF then IOF Rules will apply.
It means, inter alia, that the Day 3 start list depends on world ranking, not Day 2 performance.
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Re: JK2015
graeme wrote:Relevant WRE rules ...
• shall be Open Events
• at events with a large entry where the organiser splits elite runners into two courses, it may be possible to submit the results of both courses for World Ranking purposes.
Neils, the relevant JK rule is:
1.2.2 If the Championships are designated as a World Ranking Event (WRE) by the IOF then IOF Rules will apply.
It means, inter alia, that the Day 3 start list depends on world ranking, not Day 2 performance.
World Ranking Events can apply for rule deviations as well as take a pragmatic approach to non-mandatory guidelines where appropriate. It has been the case often in the recent past that Day 3 has been a WRE but it has always derived the start list from the day 2 results in line with standard JK rules.
I would expect Day 3 to follow the normal JK approach of reverse order of Day 2 results.
In terms of the large entry - reasonable to assume that the organising team are well aware of the issues and options as rehearsed in this thread. And that they are working hard in order to identify a good solution. An extra complexity is that a number of national teams are using the races for selection and so would naturally like all their runners to be on the same course as one another...
However, very good to have a large entry of course!
Why did I do that...
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Re: JK2015
madmike wrote:Yeah OK but what's in a name - for what we are talking about here, POM SuperE = E and POM E = L, i.e. Superelite is the real elite and people will be downgraded to (or enter by choice) long even if it is called elite.
Sorry, but that is simply not true. Both POM M21 Super Elite and POM M21 Elite have proper, full-distance long races (this year, one is 17.2km with 315m of climb, the other is 17.2km with 310m of climb) and proper technical middle races. There are also M21A (=M21S-ish?) and M21B courses.
Last year's JK put on a course to cater for a single W85. I have absolutely no problem with doing so - in fact, I'm proud to be part of such an inclusive sport. But if it were the case that some people felt that that was fine but that putting on an extra course to cater for 20 or so not-very-good M21E entrants would be too difficult, it would perhaps not be surprising if participation in orienteering in the UK had a certain demographic skew.
(Of course, I have no idea what the organizers have actually decided to do for this year's JK.)
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Re: JK2015
Mike,
I didn't realise M21L 1 & 2 were run as parallel courses. So I will refer back to POM. The top x-amount of runners run the first elite class, the remainder run the 2nd elite class (I have seen 3 elite classes before, I think in Sweden). Entry is based on world ranking, and all the elite classes are of equivalent distance and equivalent discipline. You apply to run elite, and then get put into a class once all the entries have been received. Is it correct that for WRE there are spaces reserved for local (national) runners?
I believe that is the best system, you run a very similar course to the top elite class, and you run the same programme of disciplines.
[EDIT = What Scott says, E2 is not L)
I didn't realise M21L 1 & 2 were run as parallel courses. So I will refer back to POM. The top x-amount of runners run the first elite class, the remainder run the 2nd elite class (I have seen 3 elite classes before, I think in Sweden). Entry is based on world ranking, and all the elite classes are of equivalent distance and equivalent discipline. You apply to run elite, and then get put into a class once all the entries have been received. Is it correct that for WRE there are spaces reserved for local (national) runners?
I believe that is the best system, you run a very similar course to the top elite class, and you run the same programme of disciplines.
[EDIT = What Scott says, E2 is not L)
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