The first, and in England, the last UKCC L3 course was at the end of 2011.
Only one person (me) has completed the assessment (Feb 2012) and the course hasn't been run again.
I have been told that SOA have developed their own L3 course, but don't know if they have started delivery yet.
Jackie Newton
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Re: Jackie Newton
eddie wrote:Does being a good orienteer immediately make you a good coach?
Working in higher education, I am well aware that extensive subject knowledge doesn't necessarily imply an ability to impart said knowledge. Neither does having a teaching qualification.
eddie wrote:We don't have a huge coaching culture in orienteering in the UK (compare to our event culture). Therefore it is challenging for new coaches to come through as their experiences of coaching are limited...
Exactly. Those who have come through the squad system may have had years of exposure to high level coaching methods, making them highly unusual and valuable resources. Some may be keenly motivated to spread their knowledge around their clubmates, or (for example) to become involved in helping M/W20s to make the transition to the senior elite ranks. And in order to do so in any official capacity they must start by proving they can teach eight year olds to orientate a map. (Again, I'm not saying this is a trivial matter - just that it's irrelevant to anyone who wants to coach in other contexts.) We should be making it as easy as we can for potential coaches to achieve qualifications that reflect their skills and motivations.
The pathway assumes that coaching beginners, improvers and elites (which, roughly speaking, is what levels 1-3 amount to) is a linear progression. It isn't, or at least it shouldn't be. Ideally we would have three types (not levels) of coaching certificate, each with different prerequisites, which would be relevant to different domains of coaching activity. That way we might be able to get more than one person in three years to qualify as an elite level coach (and if that is the correct figure then it's a worse indictment of the system than anything I can say!).
Patrick
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Re: Jackie Newton
My understanding is that there are plans afoot to have a qualification in a sort of 3x3 square.
Level 1 2 3
Beginners
Can't remember
Elite
You then work towards the branch that you prefer. Quite how this would work, I'm not sure.
It is true that orienteering does not have a coaching culture. Mike Hamilton put this fairly succinctly when he said that orienteering clubs are not sports clubs, but event organizing clubs. His view was that sports clubs have training for their members to get better.
Unfortunately, unlike hockey, orienteering does not work, at anything but the beginners level, by having a regular technical training session at the same accessible park each week. Mastering the more complex skills requires access to different forests on a regular basis. We all know what effort it takes to do this. It is this aspect that I don't think Mike appreciates, even though I have tried to make this point several times.
Regional Squads work by exposing the athletes to different terrains, coaches and experiences. The JROS tours work by exposing athletes to a "performance culture" where they get to train technically on different terrains, again with different coaches. It has been a shame over the last few years that no-one from BO has attended any of these to see just what good work can be done!
Ramble finished - got to go coach some beginners (or at least have a Halloween party).
Level 1 2 3
Beginners
Can't remember
Elite
You then work towards the branch that you prefer. Quite how this would work, I'm not sure.
It is true that orienteering does not have a coaching culture. Mike Hamilton put this fairly succinctly when he said that orienteering clubs are not sports clubs, but event organizing clubs. His view was that sports clubs have training for their members to get better.
Unfortunately, unlike hockey, orienteering does not work, at anything but the beginners level, by having a regular technical training session at the same accessible park each week. Mastering the more complex skills requires access to different forests on a regular basis. We all know what effort it takes to do this. It is this aspect that I don't think Mike appreciates, even though I have tried to make this point several times.
Regional Squads work by exposing the athletes to different terrains, coaches and experiences. The JROS tours work by exposing athletes to a "performance culture" where they get to train technically on different terrains, again with different coaches. It has been a shame over the last few years that no-one from BO has attended any of these to see just what good work can be done!
Ramble finished - got to go coach some beginners (or at least have a Halloween party).
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Re: Jackie Newton
graeme wrote: Does Jackie Newton have a UKCC in orienteering? How many of the squad athlete's coaches do? Do I?
To answer Graeme's questions I seem to recall Jackie saying she'd done or was doing level 2. Not sure how many personal coaches are qualified but I suspect some like myself will have the old National Coach, which became level 4 and not sure where that leaves us at UKCC - I think its supposed to be level 3?
As Eddie was saying the courses are only a platform/framework for learning how to coach. Its very much a skill that you learn on the job - there is no substitute for experience at any level of coaching in my opinion.
Whilst I'm sympathetic with Patrick's frustration at the hoops that experienced athletes have to go through to qualify as coaches I don't think that being an elite orienteer makes you an elite coach. I'd say start again with the basics, work your way up and never stop looking to learn and improve your coaching skills.
I went on a level 2 course the other day as a refresher (courtesy of Nottigham Outlaw I believe?) which I thought was excellent.
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Re: Jackie Newton
It seems like the culture in orienteering is that the best qualified / best coaches work with the senior elite and the least qualfied / less good Coaches work with the kids and teenagers. This is where BOF has got it all wrong. In highly technical sports like orienteering the skills need to be learnt very early to give you the best chance of future success at a senior level, so this is where the coaching makes most difference and where the best coaches should be working
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Re: Jackie Newton
I think you are making sweeping statements about there being no good club coaches. There are but wherever you live might be different. The main problem is that if you coach children you must be qualified for insurance purposes etc. Having to update qualifications means updating first aid (2 days) filling in logs etc. etc. which is very time consuming when you already give up time to arrange and plan training days and work full time. I have to do more to update my coaching qualification than for my professional one.
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Re: Jackie Newton
I don't think there is a linear scale from "best" to "worst" coach - this implies that a "better" coach can do everything that the "worse" coach can do plus more.
Orienteers at different levels needs different things from a coach. Orienteers at different ages or at different levels of experience/enthusiasm need different approaches. A specific coach may be more appropriate for one purpose than for another.
I have taught physics(ish) to 10 yo girls and to university students. Each required a very different skill set. I know of music teachers who are not capable of teaching a beginner to play an instrument but are brilliant to teach jazz improvisation. A Dutch cycling team has just linked up with a Dutch speed skating team, and say they are looking at increased coaching opportunities where it comes to strength training in the build-up to an event - doesn't mean that these coaches are competent to teach bike handling, or that they are better or worse for that.
I liked the matrix approach - you need basic didactic skills for everything but from there on there are a lot of different areas a coach can develop in.
(and for the record - I am a rubbish teacher at all levels )
Orienteers at different levels needs different things from a coach. Orienteers at different ages or at different levels of experience/enthusiasm need different approaches. A specific coach may be more appropriate for one purpose than for another.
I have taught physics(ish) to 10 yo girls and to university students. Each required a very different skill set. I know of music teachers who are not capable of teaching a beginner to play an instrument but are brilliant to teach jazz improvisation. A Dutch cycling team has just linked up with a Dutch speed skating team, and say they are looking at increased coaching opportunities where it comes to strength training in the build-up to an event - doesn't mean that these coaches are competent to teach bike handling, or that they are better or worse for that.
I liked the matrix approach - you need basic didactic skills for everything but from there on there are a lot of different areas a coach can develop in.
(and for the record - I am a rubbish teacher at all levels )
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Re: Jackie Newton
Can I sign up to coach the 'can't remember group'?
I think I qualify as I can sympathise with their position.
Now, what was I doing ...........
I think I qualify as I can sympathise with their position.
Now, what was I doing ...........
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Re: Jackie Newton
Putting it very simply:
UKCCL1 = the 'how to' and 'what to' of planning & delivering single sessions ( with the cards as the basis of the sessions at TD 1 -3) i.e. basic beginner/improver one-off session delivery and good for anyone just starting out in coaching orienteering who has little coaching or orienteering experience.
UKCCL2 - the 'how to' and 'what to' of planning & delivering linked, progressive sessions at TD 1 - 5. Also covers the basics of physical and mental coaching.
UKCCL3 - the 'how to' and 'what to' of planning and delivering a longer programme (eg 6 - 12 months or longer plan) and working with individual athletes.
At L2 and 3 someone can apply to go straight in and have prior learning/experience recognised.
The way UKCCL3 was originally envisaged was hugely costly to deliver so only 1 pilot course was run. National Steering Group for Coaching would prefer that this was available in modular format so that any coach could access (for CPD) and if people want to be assessed for L3 when they've worked through the tasks they can.
I have delivered some of the L2 material for existing coaches and as training for aspiring L2 - thanks Buzz and Eddie for commenting on what is available.
UKCCL1 = the 'how to' and 'what to' of planning & delivering single sessions ( with the cards as the basis of the sessions at TD 1 -3) i.e. basic beginner/improver one-off session delivery and good for anyone just starting out in coaching orienteering who has little coaching or orienteering experience.
UKCCL2 - the 'how to' and 'what to' of planning & delivering linked, progressive sessions at TD 1 - 5. Also covers the basics of physical and mental coaching.
UKCCL3 - the 'how to' and 'what to' of planning and delivering a longer programme (eg 6 - 12 months or longer plan) and working with individual athletes.
At L2 and 3 someone can apply to go straight in and have prior learning/experience recognised.
The way UKCCL3 was originally envisaged was hugely costly to deliver so only 1 pilot course was run. National Steering Group for Coaching would prefer that this was available in modular format so that any coach could access (for CPD) and if people want to be assessed for L3 when they've worked through the tasks they can.
I have delivered some of the L2 material for existing coaches and as training for aspiring L2 - thanks Buzz and Eddie for commenting on what is available.
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Re: Jackie Newton
DIDSCO wrote:It seems like the culture in orienteering is that the best qualified / best coaches work with the senior elite and the least qualfied / less good Coaches work with the kids and teenagers. This is where BOF has got it all wrong. In highly technical sports like orienteering the skills need to be learnt very early to give you the best chance of future success at a senior level, so this is where the coaching makes most difference and where the best coaches should be working
I think you're being unfair on where the 'best/worst' coaches practice - the regional squads for example seem very well equipped with both qualified and experienced coaches.
Yes, learning orienteering skills at a young age (or at least not learning the wrong skills) is important for development, but I hope you'd agree that a proper performance programme should continue to develop the athletes skills throughout their career. Too often we see squad training camps in February or March being an 'opportunity to sharpen the athletes skills' rather than part of their continuing development.
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Re: Jackie Newton
Buzz> You're a bit harsh using the word 'worst' coaches, less good is more appropriate.
How old are kids when they join regional squads 13?? You need your best coaches working with 7 year olds and upwards if you want to maximise the chances of success at senior elite level in the future. You're also as a side effect maximising your chances of them continuing in the sport even if they don't become a WOC medallist which is a big added bonus. There's plenty of research out there that confirms this when dealing with highly technical sports like forest orienteering........but maybe Brits are only interested in running round car parks and tower blocks nowadays
Two of my children train ice skating, another highly technical skilled sport, they're 3 and 6. Guess who leads the training sessions? Yes top elite level coaches/ and skaters, and lots of them! They know if they don't provide these kids with the best from the start they haven't got a chance later on at an elite level, and they simply won't retain them in the sport.
I wonder how many potential stars in British orienteering are lost at age 7-13 because they don't get top quality coaching suited for their level of development, not necessarily they're age This isn't just an orienteering thing its the same situation in a lot sports.
How old are kids when they join regional squads 13?? You need your best coaches working with 7 year olds and upwards if you want to maximise the chances of success at senior elite level in the future. You're also as a side effect maximising your chances of them continuing in the sport even if they don't become a WOC medallist which is a big added bonus. There's plenty of research out there that confirms this when dealing with highly technical sports like forest orienteering........but maybe Brits are only interested in running round car parks and tower blocks nowadays
Two of my children train ice skating, another highly technical skilled sport, they're 3 and 6. Guess who leads the training sessions? Yes top elite level coaches/ and skaters, and lots of them! They know if they don't provide these kids with the best from the start they haven't got a chance later on at an elite level, and they simply won't retain them in the sport.
I wonder how many potential stars in British orienteering are lost at age 7-13 because they don't get top quality coaching suited for their level of development, not necessarily they're age This isn't just an orienteering thing its the same situation in a lot sports.
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Re: Jackie Newton
buzz wrote: Not sure how many personal coaches are qualified but I suspect some like myself will have the old National Coach, which became level 4 and not sure where that leaves us at UKCC - I think its supposed to be level 3?
Don't know about 'National Coach': it ran from Teacher-Leader through Instructor, Club Coach, Regional Coach to Senior Coach. I finished up at the SC level before taking a break.
batty wrote:IThe main problem is that if you coach children you must be qualified for insurance purposes etc. Having to update qualifications means updating first aid (2 days) filling in logs etc. etc. which is very time consuming when you already give up time to arrange and plan training days and work full time. I have to do more to update my coaching qualification than for my professional one.
This is the main reason why, after that break, I didn't get back into coaching. Coaching orienteering itself is time consuming enough - so much so that I stopped trying to run an orienteering club at school and started a cross-country club because the latter was vastly simpler and became more school friendly. But the amount of paperwork, updating, keeping a record of ongoing CPD etc. just got unmanageable. I know there are some who manage, and my respect for them is enormous, but I'm waiting until I retire before trying again (and by then I could well not be fit enough!).
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Re: Jackie Newton
I got seriously bored reading this lot.
I like what Patrick said though.
I've never had a coaching qualification. Apart from when I was sent one, by someone in charge of such things, with a covering letter saying - "here you go - you know your stuff".
Will I spend my time getting a coaching qualification ? - No
Do I need one ? No
Not unless I want to be paid for coaching, which I don't
I do want to support top orienteers in achieving their goals - so when they ask, if it comes together, then I do.
A fair bit of this is about meeting the expectations of the funding bodies.
Hence O' coaching is part of and based in the generic structure of all Sport England / UK Sport (Eddie will know which) coaching. Whether this is a good or a bad thing, who is to say - there are bound to be good and bad aspects. The bad aspects are likely to hinge on sport specifics
Coaching is complicated. Some of it is quite mechanical and generic -
in athletics this might be the interval session structure you put together - and these are easy formulaic things.
In oreineteering the basics are courses that introduce and exercise techniques - these are not easy and formulaic - you need to "have the sense of" orienteering to get it right. A subliminal thing.
Moving beyond the basics then you need to have a sense for your athlete, whatever the sport. But in orienteering it goes a bit further, they need the subliminal sense of orienteering, so do you and the 2 need to be able to connect.
No qualification can either impart or create these connections.
I like what Patrick said though.
I've never had a coaching qualification. Apart from when I was sent one, by someone in charge of such things, with a covering letter saying - "here you go - you know your stuff".
Will I spend my time getting a coaching qualification ? - No
Do I need one ? No
Not unless I want to be paid for coaching, which I don't
I do want to support top orienteers in achieving their goals - so when they ask, if it comes together, then I do.
A fair bit of this is about meeting the expectations of the funding bodies.
Hence O' coaching is part of and based in the generic structure of all Sport England / UK Sport (Eddie will know which) coaching. Whether this is a good or a bad thing, who is to say - there are bound to be good and bad aspects. The bad aspects are likely to hinge on sport specifics
Coaching is complicated. Some of it is quite mechanical and generic -
in athletics this might be the interval session structure you put together - and these are easy formulaic things.
In oreineteering the basics are courses that introduce and exercise techniques - these are not easy and formulaic - you need to "have the sense of" orienteering to get it right. A subliminal thing.
Moving beyond the basics then you need to have a sense for your athlete, whatever the sport. But in orienteering it goes a bit further, they need the subliminal sense of orienteering, so do you and the 2 need to be able to connect.
No qualification can either impart or create these connections.
If you could run forever ......
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Re: Jackie Newton
Kitch wrote:No qualification can either impart or create these connections.
Couldn't agree more (although the experience/knowledge gained on the way to the qualification can be rather useful). However, there are quite a lot of aspects of coaching where I'd rather not be uninsured.
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Re: Jackie Newton
Kitch wrote:I got seriously bored reading this lot.
I like what Patrick said though.
I've never had a coaching qualification. Apart from when I was sent one, by someone in charge of such things, with a covering letter saying - "here you go - you know your stuff".
Will I spend my time getting a coaching qualification ? - No
Do I need one ? No
Not unless I want to be paid for coaching, which I don't
I do want to support top orienteers in achieving their goals - so when they ask, if it comes together, then I do.
A fair bit of this is about meeting the expectations of the funding bodies.
Hence O' coaching is part of and based in the generic structure of all Sport England / UK Sport (Eddie will know which) coaching. Whether this is a good or a bad thing, who is to say - there are bound to be good and bad aspects. The bad aspects are likely to hinge on sport specifics
Coaching is complicated. Some of it is quite mechanical and generic -
in athletics this might be the interval session structure you put together - and these are easy formulaic things.
In oreineteering the basics are courses that introduce and exercise techniques - these are not easy and formulaic - you need to "have the sense of" orienteering to get it right. A subliminal thing.
Moving beyond the basics then you need to have a sense for your athlete, whatever the sport. But in orienteering it goes a bit further, they need the subliminal sense of orienteering, so do you and the 2 need to be able to connect.
No qualification can either impart or create these connections.
You lost me at about 'seriously bored'
Nice summary - all makes sense even though I have difficulty saying subliminal!
I do think though that you can enhance your own understanding and spark new ideas by reading, listening and talking to others - some of that could be via a course of some kind.
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