World Cup 2015
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Re: World Cup 2015
Your view seems to not be shared by others in the loop Ruth, otherwise a GB squad member's (current? ex?) coach wouldn't be starting threads on nopesport saying that BOF/Mike have missed a trick.
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
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Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
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Re: World Cup 2015
So maybe you are saying that it's one a piece here with all to play for.
(Plus I don't think they are conflicting points)
(Plus I don't think they are conflicting points)
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eddie - [nope] cartel
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Re: World Cup 2015
Well reading that announcement I don't think Mike could have covered many more bases than he did which is okay and I agree having it out in the open is a great improvement. It looks to me like it's everyone's game. If you want to go to Tasmania you have to prove you can hack it.
I'm much more interested in this definition of " a good role model" - are we talking charisma or geekism?
I'm much more interested in this definition of " a good role model" - are we talking charisma or geekism?
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Mrs H - god
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Re: World Cup 2015
Jon's point is that Mike may have not noticed how important WR has become for WOC forest athletes. Mike is a reasonable person, but a reasonable person may have assumed that IOF wouldn't do anything so stupid as to mess up the ranking list at the same time as using it for something that matters.
It might be straying into the grounds of unethicality for the mapper to suggest that a late start will help at WOC. Or it might be stating the bleedin obvious that anyone who has attended a six day already knows.
It might be straying into the grounds of unethicality for the mapper to suggest that a late start will help at WOC. Or it might be stating the bleedin obvious that anyone who has attended a six day already knows.
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graeme - god
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Re: World Cup 2015
The odd part of this for me is the role of the chief exec in determining what's best for elite athletes. Shouldnt that be delegated to someone appropriately qualified?
It reminds me a bit of a time in the '80s when my football team sacked the manager and the board started picking the team. It wasn't the most auspicious season for Queen of the South and the board became very very unpopular. Even today fans still shiver at the sound of the chairman's name...
It reminds me a bit of a time in the '80s when my football team sacked the manager and the board started picking the team. It wasn't the most auspicious season for Queen of the South and the board became very very unpopular. Even today fans still shiver at the sound of the chairman's name...
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Re: World Cup 2015
Surely someone has to step in and be an acting Performance Manager until Sarah's replacement is appointed.
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Re: World Cup 2015
Maybe someone could do an estimated model?
Seeded position if you go to Aus and seeded position if you don't (but do go the other WCup races - for example the ones in Swiss in a few weeks time)
Seeded position if you go to Aus and seeded position if you don't (but do go the other WCup races - for example the ones in Swiss in a few weeks time)
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eddie - [nope] cartel
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Re: World Cup 2015
I find the description of the selection situation for Tasmania as posted by Mike Hamilton clear, and Eddie's invitation to look for some numbers that could help regarding the possible effect of such a mega-trip on start positions for the World Champs Finals in Scotland intriguing.
But somewhat hard to progress. I can't happen to find this year's startlist from Italy for example.
[EDIT: e.g. http://www.woc2014.info/LIVE/startlist/ ... EN-new.pdf
Graham started 40th from last and appears to have been 57th with 5031 pts at that time, if I have understood the ranking database. So maybe not quite so many pts needed as discussed below. But conclusion unaltered - Tasmania trip aiming at ranking points seems potentially relevant to only a few.]
As ever with this sort of thing, I have tried my best but it has not been extensively checked, and I may have misinterpreted the way it all works - so corrections most welcome.
Let's say the aim is a world ranking position of 40th or better to get a reasonable start position. That suggests you'd like very roughly 5200 pts as a man, 4800 as a woman, or to be averaging 1300 / 1200 for your best four counting events. So say 1275 / 1175 would be minimum desirable. Those are in the 18 months before the competition, or from c4th February this year.
If you don't get to that number of points you are probably going to be in the early half of the final.
In practice a target of that many points tends to limit things, as others have noted, to the higher scoring events: this year's World Champs, this year's Europeans, and World Cup Races.
I think there are five more such races left: a middle in Switzerland in October, then the two in Tasmania and two in Scandinavia in next year's early world cup rounds. (In passing we note that the latter two are better than the first three as they will count for WOC 2016 too, if I have understood the rules right.)
But it could just be that points will be easier in Tasmania - it depends on who travels doesn't it?
Who needs what?
1. All athletes who improve their points benefit, but some have more scope than others. Most don't have a problem having four scores of any amount - it is a question of improving on the less valuable ones, and some of those are only just outside (e.g. Hollie has 2 x 1154 to go with two bigger scores.) But some are short of scores of any sort.
2. One athlete has 3 good ones: Cat (1385, 1280, 1223).
3. Some have 2 good ones: Hollie (1240, 1219), Claire (1311, 1178), Hector (1385, 1298), Graham (1320, 1317), Doug (1290, 1282).
4. Some have 1 good one: Tessa (1323 - a very good one), Ralph (1281 - only just counting.)
5. And there are some who don't seem to have any, yet. Which is not to say that they aren't in the reckoning, just that their start position when they are selected might be quite early.
So there may just be some hard thinking going on re Tasmania for a few of our athletes - and by the way they are asked to decide before the race in Switzerland early next month. But it may only be possible to make a marginal difference, and then only if it goes very well, so you can see that Switzerland and WC Round 2 next year may offer better odds and be a pragmatic choice.
But somewhat hard to progress. I can't happen to find this year's startlist from Italy for example.
[EDIT: e.g. http://www.woc2014.info/LIVE/startlist/ ... EN-new.pdf
Graham started 40th from last and appears to have been 57th with 5031 pts at that time, if I have understood the ranking database. So maybe not quite so many pts needed as discussed below. But conclusion unaltered - Tasmania trip aiming at ranking points seems potentially relevant to only a few.]
As ever with this sort of thing, I have tried my best but it has not been extensively checked, and I may have misinterpreted the way it all works - so corrections most welcome.
Let's say the aim is a world ranking position of 40th or better to get a reasonable start position. That suggests you'd like very roughly 5200 pts as a man, 4800 as a woman, or to be averaging 1300 / 1200 for your best four counting events. So say 1275 / 1175 would be minimum desirable. Those are in the 18 months before the competition, or from c4th February this year.
If you don't get to that number of points you are probably going to be in the early half of the final.
In practice a target of that many points tends to limit things, as others have noted, to the higher scoring events: this year's World Champs, this year's Europeans, and World Cup Races.
I think there are five more such races left: a middle in Switzerland in October, then the two in Tasmania and two in Scandinavia in next year's early world cup rounds. (In passing we note that the latter two are better than the first three as they will count for WOC 2016 too, if I have understood the rules right.)
But it could just be that points will be easier in Tasmania - it depends on who travels doesn't it?
Who needs what?
1. All athletes who improve their points benefit, but some have more scope than others. Most don't have a problem having four scores of any amount - it is a question of improving on the less valuable ones, and some of those are only just outside (e.g. Hollie has 2 x 1154 to go with two bigger scores.) But some are short of scores of any sort.
2. One athlete has 3 good ones: Cat (1385, 1280, 1223).
3. Some have 2 good ones: Hollie (1240, 1219), Claire (1311, 1178), Hector (1385, 1298), Graham (1320, 1317), Doug (1290, 1282).
4. Some have 1 good one: Tessa (1323 - a very good one), Ralph (1281 - only just counting.)
5. And there are some who don't seem to have any, yet. Which is not to say that they aren't in the reckoning, just that their start position when they are selected might be quite early.
So there may just be some hard thinking going on re Tasmania for a few of our athletes - and by the way they are asked to decide before the race in Switzerland early next month. But it may only be possible to make a marginal difference, and then only if it goes very well, so you can see that Switzerland and WC Round 2 next year may offer better odds and be a pragmatic choice.
ruth wrote:I think we're all getting a bit carried away here
Last edited by afterthought on Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: World Cup 2015
afterthought wrote:But somewhat hard to progress. I can't happen to find this year's startlist from Italy for example.
By the WOC rules, startlists are meant to be in reverse WR order with some shuffling. 2/3min interval middle/long. But they didn't stick with that - the slowest women went out last. Allegedly for TV, but if they'd done the men the same way Scotia and Gonon would have still been out when the prizegiving happened. It's definitely worth finding out how the start list will be done this year.
I think there are five more such races left: But it could just be that points will be easier in Tasmania - it depends on who travels doesn't it?
Yes. The winner gets a fixed score and others are scaled from there. Poor winner = good points. It means your points depend equally on the winner's run and your own.
It's a fair assumption the a smaller field in neutral Tasmania will be easier than taking on all the Scandis in Scandinvia.
their start position when they are selected might be quite early.
You are assuming that the selectors won't take that into account, and will pick the people who "deserve" to go rather than those more likely to do well.
ruth wrote:I think we're all getting a bit carried away here
It's easy for you sprint specialists to say that!
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graeme - god
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Re: World Cup 2015
I didn't mention world rankings...
World rankings are undoubtedly very important, and believe me everyone appreciates that.
I am saying that if an athlete has a good reason for needing to go to Tasmania (for example, they can dramatically improve their WOC starting position by gaining WR points) and their results are good enough then they can put that to Mike and they will almost certainly go.
You have to have a decent argument and present it to the acting performance manager. Fair. World ranking is a very decent argument.
Its no more complicated than that...
World rankings are undoubtedly very important, and believe me everyone appreciates that.
I am saying that if an athlete has a good reason for needing to go to Tasmania (for example, they can dramatically improve their WOC starting position by gaining WR points) and their results are good enough then they can put that to Mike and they will almost certainly go.
You have to have a decent argument and present it to the acting performance manager. Fair. World ranking is a very decent argument.
Its no more complicated than that...
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Re: World Cup 2015
ruth says wrote:I am saying that if an athlete has a good reason for needing to go to Tasmania (for example, they can dramatically improve their WOC starting position by gaining WR points) and their results are good enough then they can put that to Mike and they will almost certainly go.
Mike says wrote:If, however, an athlete feels that competing at the World Cup in January does form a part of their plan to compete at JWOC or WOC 2015 they should contact me recognising that they will need to have prepared a strong argument for inclusion and accept that it will be challenged.
Go Ruth!!!!
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Re: World Cup 2015
Big Jon wrote:... has basically already stated that anyone aiming at JWOC or WOC will be very unlikely to be allowed to compete.
There is a huge difference between:
"will not be expected to express an indication of interest"
"will be very unlikely to be allowed to compete"
Imagine he had written the opposite:
"any athlete with serious intentions of competing in WOC or JWOC 2015 will be expected to express an indication of interest."
This would be cause for legitimate criticism.
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Re: World Cup 2015
graeme wrote: But they didn't stick with that - the slowest women went out last. Allegedly for TV... It's definitely worth finding out how the start list will be done this year.
I had forgotten that, does anyone know any more? The women's long startlist is at
http://www.woc2014.info/LIVE/startlist/ ... EN-new.pdf
and has Italian runners at 53rd, 56th and 66th, out of 68.
The winner, Svetlana Miranova, started 16th.
GPS at http://www.tulospalvelu.fi/gps/2014woclongW/
The opening post's key comment was
the only way to get a good start position at the World Champs is by having good World Ranking points
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Re: World Cup 2015
My legitimate General question is: who pays for air fares to Australia, and accommodation ...?
Wouldn't we all like a chance and go? The chosen elite are always the chosen few, and do we really expect podium finishes for them? Sport for All - it used to be.
Wouldn't we all like a chance and go? The chosen elite are always the chosen few, and do we really expect podium finishes for them? Sport for All - it used to be.
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Re: World Cup 2015
nooomember wrote:My legitimate General question is: who pays for air fares to Australia, and accommodation ...?
The athlete
nooomember wrote:Wouldn't we all like a chance and go? The chosen elite are always the chosen few, and do we really expect podium finishes for them? Sport for All - it used to be.
No, this is a World Cup race, not a dander around a town centre or local forest. They'll be letting punters run against Mo Farah in a Diamond League race for £50 a pop before we know it
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
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