Mike's e-news appears under the "News" heading on the main BO website, a good move. Latest version has an interesting move to make all competitors members of BO for insurance :
"Clubs can organise to charge non-members £5 for seniors and £2 for juniors and turn the non-members into members of British Orienteering, but accept they are not members of the club or association...To implement the joining of members to British Orienteering to ensure they receive public liability insurance clubs will need to take participant details and pass them on to the National Office."
How practical is this though, say you get 10 families who turn upto 3 intros and are still deciding whether they want to carry on, to then be asked for the all important address/email/phone number etc may push them away. I understand that the insurance is a very tricky one but maybe 10 events, then they must join?
As an aside - to do O must you join a club, or can you just join an Association and BO or just BO directly (no Association)? Other sports e.g. cycling I believe you can just join British Cycling (for insurance cover etc) and not be part of a club.
Shame the office move has not moved to a centre, somewhere like Loughborough Univ where many of the other sports have their governing bodies, maybe the members could stump up some more money so our governing body can move to Loughborough, may work out better for the sport in the long term.
Mike's E-news
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Re: Mike's E-news
Just a short note on office moves my desk in Loughborough is quite pricey (don't worry i'm not in a special ivory tower with a oak desk) It would be nice to see (there's a lot of inter sport converstions) but it's a fair whack of cash.
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eddie - [nope] cartel
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Re: Mike's E-news
I must admit that I'm a bit puzzled by the insurance issue. As Mike makes clear, clubs and officials are covered in all cases, so what is under discussion is the provision of personal public liability cover for non-member competitors. Why should this be an issue? It is surely for them to choose whether to join BOF and thereby get cover (along with all the other benefits of course), buy cover from somewhere else, or just accept the risk.
I had a look at the comparable position with UK athletics, and it's essentially the same - public liability cover for affiliated athletes, clubs and officials (plus travel insurance when representing your country). So unless I've misunderstood it, all the many non-members who participate in road or cross-country races don't have public liability cover through UKA, and I've never heard anyone complain about this.
I had a look at the comparable position with UK athletics, and it's essentially the same - public liability cover for affiliated athletes, clubs and officials (plus travel insurance when representing your country). So unless I've misunderstood it, all the many non-members who participate in road or cross-country races don't have public liability cover through UKA, and I've never heard anyone complain about this.
- roadrunner
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Re: Mike's E-news
Not read Mike's missive yet so shoot me down if asking a question it answers.
Is this implying that if we take extra money off non-members and their details and pass these on to BOF (which can only be after the event as they will be EOD) then BOF will pay extra money to the insurers and they will be magically covered - retrospectively ?
If so, this must be the only type of insurance you can take out and be covered for an incident which has already happened.
Is this implying that if we take extra money off non-members and their details and pass these on to BOF (which can only be after the event as they will be EOD) then BOF will pay extra money to the insurers and they will be magically covered - retrospectively ?
If so, this must be the only type of insurance you can take out and be covered for an incident which has already happened.
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King Penguin - addict
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Re: Mike's E-news
Non-members are covered for public liability for their first three events as part of the current insurance policy. I think what Mike is suggesting is that clubs could charge non-members the BOF membership fee as an entry fee surcharge at the first event they turn up to and then sign them up to BOF: that way they would be covered at their event (if it genuinely is one of their first three events) and at any subsequent events that year (because they will then be BOF members).
They is a low probability but potentially high impact reputational risk here. For instance, if an uninsured non-member is somehow liable for costly damage to the landowner's property that the landowner themselves hasn't insured against, the landowner may find themselves unable to recover the costs of repairing the damage. In that instance, I can't see the same landowner permitting any future orienteering on their land, and I imagine other landowners would follow suit when word got out.
roadrunner wrote:As Mike makes clear, clubs and officials are covered in all cases, so what is under discussion is the provision of personal public liability cover for non-member competitors. Why should this be an issue?
They is a low probability but potentially high impact reputational risk here. For instance, if an uninsured non-member is somehow liable for costly damage to the landowner's property that the landowner themselves hasn't insured against, the landowner may find themselves unable to recover the costs of repairing the damage. In that instance, I can't see the same landowner permitting any future orienteering on their land, and I imagine other landowners would follow suit when word got out.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Mike's E-news
They is a low probability but potentially high impact reputational risk here. For instance, if an uninsured non-member is somehow liable for costly damage to the landowner's property that the landowner themselves hasn't insured against, the landowner may find themselves unable to recover the costs of repairing the damage. In that instance, I can't see the same landowner permitting any future orienteering on their land, and I imagine other landowners would follow suit when word got out.
Exactly my question to BO, but no answer as yet. Could be devastating to a club if the landowner then sues for £5million for their burnt down forest..........
- Big Jon
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Re: Mike's E-news
Audax events charge extra to non-members to cover insurance - and label it "temporary membership". Seems fair, transparent & sensible to me. Currently £2 per ride.
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Re: Mike's E-news
Big Jon wrote:Exactly my question to BO, but no answer as yet. Could be devastating to a club if the landowner then sues for £5million for their burnt down forest..........
My (amateur) understanding is that, if the club has fulfilled all the relevant requirements re. registering the event etc and it is the club/event officials who are liable for the forest burning down, then they should be covered by the insurance. It's just individual non-member competitors who aren't covered for their liability, apart from at their first three events. As Mike says:
- The club and its officials will be covered for public liability insurance regardless of the non-members situation
- All members participating or volunteering to organise etc will be covered
As I see it, the problem arises when a non-member is at fault for the conflagration and the landowner sues them, but they aren't able to pay and don't have insurance. This wouldn't directly effect the organising club, but the surrounding publicity could be very damaging to the sport.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Mike's E-news
I should say that this is just me putting my entirely unqualified interpretation on the insurance documents. If Mike is taking the time to ensure he has relevant answers in writing from the insurers before replying then that seems entirely sensible.
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Scott - god
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Re: Mike's E-news
PhilJ wrote: to then be asked for the all important address/email/phone number etc may push them away.
My understanding is that clubs have a responsibility to collect at least name and address for all competitors, as a requirement of the insurance, and retain for a fairly lengthy period.
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- oo_wrong_way
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Re: Mike's E-news
I know I'm being thick but why is it not possible to insure the event itself rather than the competitors who take part in it?
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Mrs H - god
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Re: Mike's E-news
Essentially, insurance to cover public liability for all the participants in the event, as well as for the organising club, event officials etc would be prohibitively expensive.
Mike's eNews wrote:The insurers we use and the other major sports insurance providers do not provide public liability cover at a reasonable price for all participants at an event in a single package, members and non-members. Such a solution is simply not achievable for us as the significant increase in cost (if it is possible at all) will have to be met by increasing the costs to our members and will also entail significant administrative overhead for clubs and ourselves.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Mike's E-news
So how does this work with overseas competitors? Does the S6D etc just assume that that have their own cover, or should they all be joining BOF (Does my BOF membership include PI cover overseas?)
Will Freefall be checking insurance certificates along with whistles and cagoules at Glen Affric?
Will Freefall be checking insurance certificates along with whistles and cagoules at Glen Affric?
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greywolf - addict
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Re: Mike's E-news
Scott wrote:Essentially, insurance to cover public liability for all the participants in the event, as well as for the organising club, event officials etc would be prohibitively expensive.Mike's eNews wrote:The insurers we use and the other major sports insurance providers do not provide public liability cover at a reasonable price for all participants at an event in a single package, members and non-members. Such a solution is simply not achievable for us as the significant increase in cost (if it is possible at all) will have to be met by increasing the costs to our members and will also entail significant administrative overhead for clubs and ourselves.
I'm sure Mike's done his research and therefore this must be the case, but it does strike me as odd: we can get cover for the event, members and non-members doing their first three events for a reasonable price, but add in non-members who aren't doing one of their first three events and the cost goes through the roof - why?
Certainly it would be bad for the sport if a landowner sued a non-member for damage, and this wasn't covered by insurance, but how could this happen? How would they know who to sue, anyway? Wouldn't they just sue the event, which of course would be insured?
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Re: Mike's E-news
Insurance is just that, insuring the risk something may occur to recover a cost. So the question might be how many insurance claims have been made by landowners against a club/insured member/uninsured (greater than 3 events) member in the last say 5 years.
Are we over-insuring something that has never happened and the probability is very low, should I take out insurance incase I win the lottery and someone steals all my money?
Back to a previous point this is where locating our governing body around/same place as other governing bodies may provide dividends.
We must have insurance as many landowners,councils, forestry commission etc demand to see it, we are not the only outdoor participant sport requiring insurance, so would it not be better to fully investigate each sport to see if there are similarities rather than having to invent a new process? Is this again like uk sport etc and the tail wagging the dog.
Are we over-insuring something that has never happened and the probability is very low, should I take out insurance incase I win the lottery and someone steals all my money?
Back to a previous point this is where locating our governing body around/same place as other governing bodies may provide dividends.
We must have insurance as many landowners,councils, forestry commission etc demand to see it, we are not the only outdoor participant sport requiring insurance, so would it not be better to fully investigate each sport to see if there are similarities rather than having to invent a new process? Is this again like uk sport etc and the tail wagging the dog.
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