Regions - time for a shakeup?

[SeanC]

Perhaps someone could explain how the big events (British Long/Mid/Sprint/Night championships, JK, regional championships etc) are allocated between regions? It seems to me that there is some kind of rotation between regions in that the same event isn't in the same region two years running (apart from the Harvester where any club who wants to volunteer organises it).

If so, is this fair? There are massive variations in the orienteering populations of the different regions (see below). So does that mean that the good folk of NEOA are being pestered to put on much more than their fair share of big events for the rest of us?

From a competitor viewpoint, would bigger regions give more choice of areas = better quality? Or would it be better to have smaller regions to give us more of a slow tour of different corners of the UK, and more people who cant afford to travel a chance to compete in big events?

Would it work to have separate regions/committees for organising events, and regions/committees for all the other stuff (junior squads, kit sharing, development etc)? (eg Wales and West Midlands for events; North Wales, South Wales, West Midlands for other stuff).

Should regions be abolished and replaced with something else? *

Has the inequality between regions always been there, or is it a modern thing?

FYI, here are the numbers of ranked orienteers in the different regions:

Scotland: 762
South East: 721
North West: 676
South West: 668
Yorks and Humberside: 521
South Central: 434
East Midlands: 339
West Midlands: 382
East Anglia: 376
North East: 185
Wales: 138
Northern Ireland: 93

* There was a serious proposal to disband SEOA several years ago I understand.

[eddie]

How about

North (NEOA; NWOA; YHOA); South (SEOA (minus clubs north and east of London) & SCOA); West (SWOA); Central (WMOA and EMOA); East (EAOA plus some clubs from SEOA). The nations to remain as they are.

Bigger regions - bigger opportunities to combine resources (development; events; training volunteers; coaching opportunities)

Probably keep the junior squads as is for JIRCS and some training camps but possibly combine them at some points in the year (logistically tough but a great weekend for the kids!). Might even see some more senior development squads developed (a la SEDS [I understand NWOA were doing one])

Question to ask is to list what regions do and the best structure to deliver it?

[DJM]

The nations to remain as they are

But ...

Scotland: 762
Wales: 138
Northern Ireland: 93

Scotland is 5.5 times bigger than Wales (using SeanC's criterion) and 8.2 times bigger than Northern Ireland. SOA could easily pull its weight as a "new" region, but could WOA or NIOA??

[graeme]

Question to ask is to list what regions do and the best structure to deliver it?

Exactly. But you gave the solution before asking the questions. Maybe you spent too long at BOF?

Apart from "Nation stuff", here in SOA we do "Events too big for a single club". By taking control of the those SOA is able to ensure that clubs in places where the terrain is a bit rubbish get access to good areas. I think a failing elsewhere is to have regions with lots of people and no good areas, adjacent to regions with good areas and fewer people (say WOA/WMOA or NEOA/Lakes). A sensible structure would have regions with both people and areas. e.g.

NEOA + Cumbria.
NWOA (south) + North Wales
YHOA + EMOA + EAOA
WMOA + South Wales
SWOA
SEOA + SCOA
SOA
Ireland

A structure where the regions hold the areas and the clubs have the people might work well. Compared with most sports the current non-overlapping club structure is very rigid, because any new club would be unviable without areas. As we saw in another thread, if club members find themselves at odds with their club's ethos, there's no easy option to move to a different club.

[Duncan]

As someone who sits on the Event Scheduling Group (NEOA fixtures rep), I can tell you how it works today. Basically for JK and BOC there is a "rotation" between regions. The rota is created based on various factors, e.g. which regions are willing / able to put on the competitions in question, considering terrain, volunteers, major officials etc. For example for JK/BOC...

• EAOA don't appear I think mainly due to lack of areas
• EMOA don't appear for similar reasons although they do have willing officials/volunteers and have jointly hosted in other regions in the past and intended again in future I think
• NIOA don't appear except on an occasionally case-by-case basis.

Then there are other considerations e.g.:SOA/WOA/NWOA not doing in a year when they have a summer multi-day, trying not to have all the major events down one end of the UK in the same year (although for various scheduling reasons this cannot always be perfect) etc. But otherwise things do rotate fairly evenly between the remaining regions.

The above applies to JK and BOC/BRC.

• British Sprint/Middle used to be "bid" for, but is going a bit more rotational amongst regions that can manage it in addition to JK/BOC.
• HIs have a country rotation, and within England they rotate evenly round regions.
• JIRCs have a rotation round all regions.
• Area champs rotate within areas (and N. Champs at least is "uneven", as we moved to a 5-year rota a few years ago, with NWOA and YHOA each doing 2 years out of 5, and NEOA doing 1, to reflect areas, volunteers etc.).
• Just about everything else is "bid" for, e.g. British Nights, Compass Sport Cup Final, Harvester, PPJTR, YBT final, BSOC, BSSC etc. I.e. regions, or more often specific clubs, put together an offer to host. It is a rare day when there are multiple offers to choose from, and for several of these competitions some arm twisting is required to get any offer at all.

It is very true that if you consider JK and BOC in isolation, you may say the existing rotation doesn't reflect where the best terrain is, nor where the centres of population and most volunteers are (although those two things alone conflict with each other), but it does at least get people to experience the wide variety the UK has to offer. But you also have to consider all the other events above. E.g. I think NEOA, like several other smaller regions, do a marvellous job being able to stage JK and BOC when their turn comes. And if you consider say WOA, another small region, they also put on a multi-day every four years, and HIs three out of four years - amazing effort really. But e.g. NEOA would struggle to have the bandwidth to put on many other things like Middles, Sprints, Nights, Harvester, CSCF, YBTF etc. whereas others do more than average. If they did less turns in the BOC/JK rotation maybe they could do more other stuff. But no easy answer.

[eddie]

The nations to remain as they are

But ...

Scotland: 762
Wales: 138
Northern Ireland: 93

Scotland is 5.5 times bigger than Wales (using SeanC's criterion) and 8.2 times bigger than Northern Ireland. SOA could easily pull its weight as a "new" region, but could WOA or NIOA??

Nations are potentially challenging because they are erm Nations!

[eddie]

Question to ask is to list what regions do and the best structure to deliver it?

Exactly. But you gave the solution before asking the questions. Maybe you spent too long at BOF?

The joy of working in sport and the dozens of examples of egionally chopping up that goes on. The same issues probably exist in industry/commerce in how they organise regions.

In addition all sports have this debate about how to chop up their areas. East Anglia/North East/South West tend to make life interesting.

Like I said depends what you want at the end of the day!

[Homer]

I like Graeme's suggestion.

Anything which means that we make more use of the terrain in North Wales gets my vote.

[EddieH]

Graeme's suggestion looks great to me.

Duncan, you are so right. The NE do a fantastic job and often fail to get the credit. You used to invariably get poor weather at best, but that seems to have changed with the last JK and this week's excellently produced British in ideal weather. And Wales are remarkable in what they produce.

[JK]

... I think a failing elsewhere is to have regions with lots of people and no good areas, adjacent to regions with good areas and fewer people (say WOA/WMOA or NEOA/Lakes). A sensible structure would have regions with both people and areas. e.g.

NEOA + Cumbria.
NWOA (south) + North Wales
YHOA + EMOA + EAOA
WMOA + South Wales
SWOA
SEOA + SCOA
SOA
Ireland

There are some good ideas here. Major event rotations could be on the "Super regions", but maintain regional squads.

The nations to remain as they are.

Is this part of the "Better Together" manfiesto?

[awk]

YHOA + EMOA + EAOA

So, can guess where the people are, but areas? All three regions struggle.

It might suit Scotland, given it's a nation, but a region where it takes over 5 hours to travel across?

[Snail]

Has the inequality between regions always been there, or is it a modern thing?

The current regions correspond to the original (i.e. dating from BOF formation) UK Sports Council regions. At the time, and for many years afterwards, some funding was available on a regional basis so there some advantages in following the same structure. But I think Sport England is now simply organised as North / Central / South, so there is no particular logic in continuing with a structure that was never specifically designed to fit the sport.

Although historically regional numbers were larger, the proportions have probably always been similar. There have been some changes where clubs have switched regions (e.g. SN were historically in SEOA, but I think most members are now in SCOA and they help with SCOA-hosted BOC sand JKs).

I also like Graeme's suggestion - and the logic behind it.

[PhilJ]

And Wales are remarkable in what they produce.

Well if you are in South Wales towards the end of June we have a plethora of events for you:
Thurs 19th June - SWOC Llangatock - evening event (JK training area, very much like JK day 3)
Fri 20th June - SBOC Midsummer on Gower day 1 - evening event on Llanmadoc hill (overlooking Sat and Sun areas)
Sat 21st June - SBOC Midsummer on Gower day 2 - full colour coded courses on Whiteford Burrows (used for HI's)
Sun 22nd June - SBOC Midsummer on Gower day 3 - 2 x 2 relays on Broughton Burrows (also used for HI's and National event, remember them!)

Entries open on Fabian4 for Sat and Sun, just tagged all the sites for Fri event tonight

We also have a campsite for the weekend booked and the usual BBQ, rounders and spacehopper races will keep you entertained on Sat evening. SBOC Midsummer on Gower is now in its 15th year. Details on SBOC and SWOC websites.

[orunner]

Just a couple of thoughts:
A North Region? NE would be overpowered by our more prosperous neighbours and see very little top class competition. From where I live to York - 100 miles, Manchester - 180 miles, Windermere - 100 miles, how would that work to share people to run events?
What criteria are there to define "best terrain"? I originate from SE but am not keen on the terrain there - Winterfold, nice area but no variation and no real navigational challenge, Hambledon ditto.
The EU seems to be hell bent on removing all diversity from our lives - let's try to keep some in UK orienteering and leave the system of major even rotation in place. I may not find terrain in SE the most enjoyable but I like to experience the difference.

[graeme]

100 miles, how would that work to share people to run events?

Interlopers organised and ran the Scottish champs at Dalnamein a fortnight ago, with help from EUOC, RR, ELO. It's 100 miles from Edinburgh to Dalnamein, further from RR/ELOland. Dalnamein is in the Tayside region, the nearest club is BASOC and the map was produced by STAG.

It's completely normal in SOA for clubs to work together to do what it takes to put on major events on the best terrain. Maybe that's why we have so many top orienteers.