Max counters rule

[SeanC]

In case you're unaware, the Compass Sport Cup/Trophy has rules defining how many scorers are allowed on each course. In the 'Allow running down ..." thread several people proposed that this be removed, and the clubs 13 or 26 best scorers count, irrespective of what course they ran.

Case to retain the rule.
- clubs have to have a "healthy" spread of ages.
- encourages clubs to recruit all ages.
- scorers come from all ages/men and women in all cases.
- no change needed, no complaints about rule changes.

Case against the rule.
- a test of demographics rather than performance
- encourages clubs to recruit all ages whereas targeting specific age groups is more effective marketing and might be a better development strategy.
- harder to make full teams. Can ruin the final if one or two people get injured or can't go.
- a change in rules = different winners = more interesting competition.

Please add your own for and against points.

[Big Jon]

Keep the rule - otherwise big clubs will just swamp the event and guarantee success by having vast numbers of counters from their strong classes.

[SeanC]

Does anybody with a spreadsheet and an hour spare fancy recalculating last year's final results with the no max counters rules to see what happens to the results?

[graeme]

Keep the rule - otherwise big clubs will just swamp the event and guarantee success by having vast numbers of counters from their strong classes.

This is demonstrably not the case. Removing the max counters rule predominantly helps the smaller clubs who can't cover all the age groups (go check the facts!).

If you wanted to prevent big clubs swamping the event you wouldn't allow their non-counters to push little clubs scores down. (but I'm not saying that's a good idea)

[sketchweppers]

Does anybody with a spreadsheet and an hour spare fancy recalculating last year's final results with the no max counters rules to see what happens to the results?

Almost no difference to the rank order in the Trophy competition (5th and 6th place tied, and no difference in the 14th score, so had to go to 15th score). Top club actually scored exactly the same as with 2013 rules. All the other clubs scored slightly higher without max counter rules (up to a difference of 56 for a club who had no competitors on either light green course, nor orange men).

The winning club had at least one top 3 position in all the classes entered and had one class with no representation. I am not convinced it would make any difference so I will vote no.

An interesting exercise. We do have new rules for 2014 and perhaps I will repeat the exercise for my round this year - see if there are any effects.

[SeanC]

As you were posting this, I did the same exercise. Here's the cup results from last year with the existing rules (numbers of competitors in brackets).

BOK 2333 (109)
OD 2202 (63)
LOC 2119 (39)
DVO 1997 (64)
SO 1908 (33)
AIRE 1370 (23)
CLOK 1224 (19)

And here is for where we take the best 26 competitors with no max counters rule

OD 2278 (63)
LOC 2167 (39)
BOK 2157 (109)
SO 1960 (33)
DVO 1933 (64)
AIRE 1370 (23)
CLOK 1224 (19)

Did this quick on the spreadsheet, so could have made a mistake.

[Wayward-O]

Did this quick on the spreadsheet, so could have made a mistake.

I'd query a couple of the revised scores. IMHO, clubs can only score more or the same points from removing the max counters rule - i.e. either they'd count the same scorers or would replace a low scorer with a higher scorer who'd been excluded due to the rule. Therefore I'd not expect the scores for BOK and DVO to go down. If both teams only scored as current rules, then positions would remain the same.

[Snail]

Please add your own for and against points.

Against: Removing the rule makes calculating the results a lot simpler. Everyone (on the correct course) gets points, and you just take the highest n scores to determine the club score.

[SeanC]

I'd query a couple of the revised scores.

BOK IN SHOCK CUP REINSTATEMENT

BOK 2419
OD 2278
LOC 2196
DVO 2059
SO 1960
AIRE 1370
CLOK 1224

ie no max counters gives exactly the same result as current formula.

[Big Jon]

I stand corrected - thanks for all the leg (!?) work to check the way rule change would (not) change the result.

[SeanC]

It could be that all the finalists have a similar demographic, so there's still debate to be had.

Where the rule really would help would be in the qualifiers where lots of teams don't have enough for a scoring team. Here's the list of trophy clubs in 2013 that I found that didn't have 13 scorers. Most of these were only one or two runners short. What a miserable experience.

SUFFOLK
BL
SOLWAY
CLARO
CHIG
GO
LOK
HAVOC
DFOK
SWOC
COBOC
KERNO
RR
TAY
INT

So, if we could change a rule* that made no difference to the results of the final, but would make a really big difference to the morale and development of lots of small clubs (some of whom really need help), why wouldn't we make it?

* removing the max counters rule, or allowing competitors to run down.

[SJC]

All the re-calculations of the final are fine but miss the biggest impact that the removal of the maximum counters rule would have had.

SYO would not have been eliminated in their qualifying round as without the maximum counters rule they would have defeated DVO with ease. What effect this would have had on the final cannot be known, but it would seem likely that they would have won this as well.

[SeanC]

Fair enough. It's an example where the rule has improved the competition by introducing a little variety on who wins.

I guess then it's a decision about what's more important. I think that the competition would be much healthier to include clubs that struggle to get 13 or 26 scorers (and people who can't run their age class course), and this would be better for the sport's development.

The rules say:

The CompassSport Cup and CompassSport Trophy events are the premier inter-club competitions for British clubs. The organising clubs should aim to make a real occasion out of it. It is intended to foster club spirit and be attractive both to competitors and to the club hosting it, for which it should be financially viable

Removing the max counters rule/allowing running down would make an occasion out of the event and improve club spirit for the 10-20 + clubs that don't make a full team, but (maybe?) make the competition more predictable, which probably isn't what we want for a premier competition. What do others think?

[sketchweppers]

[quote="SeanC"]
Where the rule really would help would be in the qualifiers where lots of teams don't have enough for a scoring team. Here's the list of trophy clubs in 2013 that I found that didn't have 13 scorers. Most of these were only one or two runners short. What a miserable experience.

Often the problem is getting 13 people to turn up at all, regardless of whether there are no more than the 2 allowed scorers on each course. This year we have entered the qualifier with more than 13, and only 2 are running up to'balance' the team. Last year we would have just made the 13, but then had some drop out due to illness. Removing the max counters rule would not have made any difference.