Thank you DJM - that fits my recollection nicely.
I would point out that the list of permitted equipment doesn't include a magnifier -so how many of you breach that? (I do because my compass has one built in - not that I need one an optical flaw called a "receded near point" means I don't need it as long as I can remove my glasses and place the map ridiculously close to my face)
Map Scale (again)
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Re: Map Scale (again)
Possibly the slowest Orienteer in the NE but maybe above average at 114kg
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AndyC - addict
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Re: Map Scale (again)
Competitors must use only the map provided by the Organiser during a race.
This map (or version of it) has been provided by the Organiser online - so can it be used? I suggest not as it is not the 'competition' map.
The Rule could be interpreted or misinterpreted either way.
It is the last thing the Organiser or Event Officals intended as they were trying to assist the competitors by giving out as much information prior to the Event as possible and should be applauded for doing so.
But sometimes too much information......
I appreciate Rules can not cover all eventualities and Forums thrive on such topics after events, so in such cases before a race starts the Rules of morality and fair play should apply and blow ups (of the map variety) should be left in the Club Tent.
- skybluepete
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Re: Map Scale (again)
SJC wrote:I think the use of OCAD has nothing to do with clarity of maps.
It is the ease of adding so much detail using OCAD that reduces the clarity of the final map. What looks fine on the screen magnified ten times over can be unreadable when printed at the proper scale. Unfortunately the map then gets printed at a larger scale to compensate for this.
All you need to do is view or print out the map detail at final scale as drawing progresses: simples - a vast improvement on pen and ink or scribing with no direct facility to view work at final scale resulting in a far greater tendency to clutter maps.
- Gnitworp
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Re: Map Scale (again)
DJM wrote:And Rule 10.3 says10.3 In addition to the competition map, competitors are permitted to carry with them the following:
A compass
A whistle for use in an emergency.
A watch/other time keeping device
A mobile phone for use in an emergency.
A GPS
A torch
So according to the rules we're not allowed to carry food & water - never realised that?
- charles2
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Re: Map Scale (again)
skybluepete wrote:
Example : CSC/T next week - one heat has already posted the map and commented in their final details that certain courses would use a specific complex area.
So after producing an image and magnifying to 1:4000 or less it is possible for competitors to have not only printed copies but copies on their phones to take with them.
Looking at the magnified image and detail it would certainly be an advantage - probably to everyone (not only the older competitors).
For a Level B Event, is this a breach of any BO or CSC/T Rules, besides the obvious moral issue it raises?
Should our team captain be handing out copies or emailing or tweeting to our team members accordingly?
Is it any different to using a magnifier attached to a compass?
As the area has been used for competition before some competitors will still have their old maps and so can do some perfectly legitimate "geeking" so it seems only fair to allow others the same privilege by publishing a blank copy of the current map.
As for the reference to a specific area of the map anyone looking at the map would almost certainly work out that that specific region of the map would be in use.
it seems fairer all round to make this clear. Anyone detected using a phone to navigate will, of course, be dqd.
- mykind
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Re: Map Scale (again)
skybluepete wrote:Rules of morality and fair play should apply and blow ups (of the map variety) should be left in the Club Tent.
The problem with "morality and fair play" rules comes if not everyone agrees. for example I don't think coping with unreadable maps is a legitimate part of orienteering. Rather, its in the category of master maps, pin punching, following and tracking up - something we'd like to get rid of but haven't figured out how. The ideal scale for legibility is different for different people, and even for the same person at different stages of life. Its unfair (if unavoidable) that some people get the ideal scale for them, and others don't. If we could remove that unfairness, then morally we should.
As a mapper, legibility is my number one priority. More than accuracy, and more than consistent standards. If "testing eyesight" is a legitimate part of the sport then I'm doing it wrong. Yet strangely nobody has ever complained about my maps being too easy to read.
Provided the old map is freely available, than carrying a blow up is morally no different to wearing contact lenses or carrying a magnifier.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Map Scale (again)
Coming back to the original question of map scale. I have some sympathy for the runners' argument (finding 1:15K difficult myself now) but I also have some sympathy for the IOF / Map Group view.
That's because bigger scales invariably tend to lead to more detail, and where does it end? So yes you can make a good argument to say "I can't read this map at 1:15 please may I have it at 1:10" but you can be sure that next time, there will be more detail on the (general) 1:10 map. At which point someone will say "I can't read this map at 1:10 please may I have 1:7.5" and we keep going like that.
To an extent, I like more detail because it makes it more interesting. But there is definitely a trend to over-map detail which the push for ever bigger scales is accelerating.
That's because bigger scales invariably tend to lead to more detail, and where does it end? So yes you can make a good argument to say "I can't read this map at 1:15 please may I have it at 1:10" but you can be sure that next time, there will be more detail on the (general) 1:10 map. At which point someone will say "I can't read this map at 1:10 please may I have 1:7.5" and we keep going like that.
To an extent, I like more detail because it makes it more interesting. But there is definitely a trend to over-map detail which the push for ever bigger scales is accelerating.
- Arnold
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Re: Map Scale (again)
Coming back to the original question of map scale. I have some sympathy for the runners' argument (finding 1:15K difficult myself now) but I also have some sympathy for the IOF / Map Group view.
That's because bigger scales invariably tend to lead to more detail, and where does it end? So yes you can make a good argument to say "I can't read this map at 1:15 please may I have it at 1:10" but you can be sure that next time, there will be more detail on the (general) 1:10 map. At which point someone will say "I can't read this map at 1:10 please may I have 1:7.5" and we keep going like that.
To an extent, I like more detail because it makes it more interesting. But there is definitely a trend to over-map detail which the push for ever bigger scales is accelerating.
That's because bigger scales invariably tend to lead to more detail, and where does it end? So yes you can make a good argument to say "I can't read this map at 1:15 please may I have it at 1:10" but you can be sure that next time, there will be more detail on the (general) 1:10 map. At which point someone will say "I can't read this map at 1:10 please may I have 1:7.5" and we keep going like that.
To an extent, I like more detail because it makes it more interesting. But there is definitely a trend to over-map detail which the push for ever bigger scales is accelerating.
- Arnold
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Re: Map Scale (again)
Holyrood Park is a good example of this. Google image it and you'll find maps from 1:1000 to 1:10,000 (for 1:15000 you need to look in my loft). It's a great area for "Long" orienteering - big route choices, physicality, picking lines etc. Parts of it are also good for sprint style, as per last two Big Weekends. The current map, an ISSOM masterpiece by Jegor Kostylev, has a level of detail completely unreadable (probably by anyone) at 1:15000.
So the practical consequence of moving to smaller map scales is that the best area in Edinburgh for classic orienteering is no longer usable. Be careful what you wish for...
So the practical consequence of moving to smaller map scales is that the best area in Edinburgh for classic orienteering is no longer usable. Be careful what you wish for...
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Map Scale (again)
Well yes, but before it was remapped as an ISSOM map what you had was an out of date ISOM map where the vegetation and path network was in places effectively uninterpretable unless you happened to live and train in Edinburgh and knew all the wee vagaries. It needed updating one way or another. No reason why the ISOM map couldnt be updated too...
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
- andypat
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Re: Map Scale (again)
The main issue with the trend for large scales is that it becomes more difficult to visualise the terrain on the broader scale. Yes, you can now pick out individual thickets and see the wrinkles in individual contours, but you lose the bigger picture of the overall shape of a hillside which you judge from the assemblage of contours as a whole. Its a case of not seeing the wood for the trees.
This is particularly important for long courses where the emphasis is on long distance route choice. If you are planning a 2km leg you can end up with a large expanse of map to study.
This is particularly important for long courses where the emphasis is on long distance route choice. If you are planning a 2km leg you can end up with a large expanse of map to study.
- pete.owens
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Re: Map Scale (again)
Horses for courses.
- Gnitworp
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Re: Map Scale (again)
skybluepete wrote:Competitors must use only the map provided by the Organiser during a race.
This map (or version of it) has been provided by the Organiser online - so can it be used? I suggest not as it is not the 'competition' map.
The Rule could be interpreted or misinterpreted either way.
Note where in the sentence "during a race" is placed - it qualifies when the usable map is provided by the Organiser, not when competitors can use maps provided by the Organiser.
- cbg
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Re: Map Scale (again)
Think youve got that wrong cbg. For your version to be the only interpretation it would need a comma after map. For the opposite to be the case a comma after organiser. Agree its open to interpretation in current format.
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
- andypat
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Re: Map Scale (again)
Interesting thread. To me whether the mapper can see a vacant white area on their nascent map and resist the need to fill it with some extra information is got very little to do with the tool he uses or the scale of the survey. It is related to the ability of the mapper to do the job. The very best have the skill, experience and "feel" to get the level of detail appropriate for the terrain and competition. The rest of us bumble along, aiming to achieve the highest level of accuracy, consistency and appropriate level of detail we can. And hopefully we do learn from experience and from constructive observations of others.
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Red Adder - brown
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