I like the UKOL, although I agree the publicity has been crap.
If people are worried about points scores towards the bottom of the field depending more on the size of the field than their own performance, there is a simple solution. Instead of decrementing the score by 1 for each place (i.e. 50, 49, 48 etc), decrement it by an amount that reflects the number of finishers. Thus if the top score remains 50 and 25 people finish a class, the decrement would be 2 (i.e. 50, 48, 46). If there were only 10 finishers, the decrement would be 5. Finishing halfway would thus get the same score all the time.
It would probably be best to have a higher starting point, say 1000 for the winner, to get a reasonably smooth progression. Certainly my proposal would break down for a field of more than 50 if the top score remains 50.
UK O League
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
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Re: UK O League
awk wrote:Please God No. And No again. And Thrice No!!!!!
Exactly.
My basic point is that the scoring system is a major element in any league, and effectively defines the target audience. ie. different groups of people will be drawn to it depending on the scoring used. And the current scoring system works best for those at the sharp end.
My other point is that the Nopesport League shares many characteristics with the UKOL, so points made about one league may well apply equally to the other.
- Sloop
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Re: UK O League
Top UK male orienteers (UKOL)
1 Romualdas Stupelis
2 Joe Taunton
3 Richard Robinson
4 Robert Kelly
5 Alex Rothman
Top UK male orienteers (Ranking List)
1 Murray Strain
2 Kristian Jones
3 Graham Gristwood
4 Douglas Tullie
5 Matthew Speake
I think this shows that the UK O-League and the Ranking list are completely separate and obviously have different agendas. As to which is more accurate? - well check out who was in the WOC team........
- Big Jon
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Re: UK O League
Sloop wrote:My basic point is that the scoring system is a major element in any league, and effectively defines the target audience.
A very good point. Too often people have some prejudice about "best" scoring system which they apply blindly regardless of what they're trying to achieve. The UKOL system would work well if the target audience was to find the very best in the country, and that audience turned up. andypat explains well why it doesn't work for midpackers. It dosn't work well for the people at the top of the current M21 list because the major competitions (JK, spriddle) are dominated by people who aren't taking UKOL seriously. So those races become irrelevant to the people who do care.
A sensible league scoring system shouldn't be strongly dependent on people who aren't interested in the league.
My other point is that the Nopesport League shares many characteristics with the UKOL, so points made about one league may well apply equally to the other.
Points work better for the NUL (and S6D) for two reasons...
1/ The top urban races (London, RTC) aren't included, so all NUL events are roughly equivalent. For S6D its pretty much the same field every day.
2/ They have a prizegiving after the final race, so the system needs to be quickly calculatable.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: UK O League
Comparing the top UKOL runners with the top ranking list runners is not comparing like for like anyway. The UKOL points reflect how well you did against other runners in your age category, while the ranking points reflect how well you did against everyone running the same course. In UKOL a good M65 might beat a good M21 because he consistently wins M65 classes but it is unlikely he will beat the M21's ranking score.
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Miner - white
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Re: UK O League
Quote "In UKOL a good M65 might beat a good M21 because he consistently wins M65"
Absolutely not a chance, unless you mean he wins his age class and the other guy is lower in a totally different competition.
Absolutely not a chance, unless you mean he wins his age class and the other guy is lower in a totally different competition.
- EddieH
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World Cup
Oh look, they're having exactly the same argument about the World Cup!
_________P W D L F A Pts
1 Rangers 12 12 0 0 47 6 36
2 Celtic__ 12 9 3 0 27 11 30
awk wrote: Next you'll be suggesting that we need to give XXXXX Celtic more than three points because they beat XXXXX Inverness CT rather than XXXXX Brechin,
_________P W D L F A Pts
1 Rangers 12 12 0 0 47 6 36
2 Celtic__ 12 9 3 0 27 11 30
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: World Cup
graeme wrote:awk wrote: Next you'll be suggesting that we need to give XXXXX Celtic more than three points because they beat XXXXX Inverness CT rather than XXXXX Brechin,
_________P W D L F A Pts
1 Rangers 12 12 0 0 47 6 36
2 Celtic__ 12 9 3 0 27 11 30
Except I didn't..... (Haven't a clue what that lot means!).
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awk - god
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Re: UK O League
I think he's pointing out that Rangers (in the 3rd tier of Scottish football) with a 100% record could hardly be said to be better than Celtic who're in the Premier League and playing much tougher opposition. The parallel with how positions in a competition should be determined is then rather obvious (at least to me).
Old by name but young at heart
- Oldman
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Re: UK O League
In the UKOL, only a small proportion of the BOF M/W 21 membership even get the opportunity to beat a M/W 21.
In the golden age of orienteering the longest M/W 21 course was always a bit of a niche activity. In the last vestige of orienteering greatness, the Scottish 6 day, M/W 21S is still the most popular course.
Apart from this the M/W 21 short courses have generally been marginalised, and don't count for the UKOL: no wonder participation has dropped in this key age group.
In the golden age of orienteering the longest M/W 21 course was always a bit of a niche activity. In the last vestige of orienteering greatness, the Scottish 6 day, M/W 21S is still the most popular course.
Apart from this the M/W 21 short courses have generally been marginalised, and don't count for the UKOL: no wonder participation has dropped in this key age group.
- aiming off
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Re: UK O League
Oldman wrote:I think he's pointing out that Rangers (in the 3rd tier of Scottish football) with a 100% record could hardly be said to be better than Celtic who're in the Premier League and playing much tougher opposition. The parallel with how positions in a competition should be determined is then rather obvious (at least to me).
I'm glad it is to you, because it's completely opaque to me: they're taking part in completely separate competitions.
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awk - god
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Re: UK O League
aiming off wrote:In the UKOL, only a small proportion of the BOF M/W 21 membership even get the opportunity to beat a M/W 21.
I would have thought the opposite is true as the UKOL includes Middle, Sprint and Ultrasprint all of which offer short courses, plus Urban which offers technically easy courses (at least in pure map reading terms). Feels a lot more inclusive than the Scottish 6 days to me.
I think you need to look elsewhere to explain M/W 21 participation levels.
To oblivion and beyond....
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buzz - addict
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Re: UK O League
Re M/W21 participation in UKOL - the point is that you have to enter the elite course (or long if there isn't an elite option) to get UKOL points. Anybody that would typically run long or short is excluded.
If you wanted more people to participate, you could, for example, add the long results to the bottom of the elite, so if the slowest elite was 15th, the fastest long runner for ranking purposes would be 16th.
If UKOL is only supposed to be for elites, fair enough, but in that case why have so few bothered with it? I'm a middling-poor long course runner at the older end of the '21' bracket and wouldn't dream of entering elite. I've still managed a top 20 UKOL position excluding those events where there was an elite course, which indicates somethings definitely going wrong somewhere...
If you wanted more people to participate, you could, for example, add the long results to the bottom of the elite, so if the slowest elite was 15th, the fastest long runner for ranking purposes would be 16th.
If UKOL is only supposed to be for elites, fair enough, but in that case why have so few bothered with it? I'm a middling-poor long course runner at the older end of the '21' bracket and wouldn't dream of entering elite. I've still managed a top 20 UKOL position excluding those events where there was an elite course, which indicates somethings definitely going wrong somewhere...
- obody
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Re: UK O League
whoever wrote:graeme wrote:
Whoever wrote: Next you'll be suggesting that we need to give XXXXX Celtic more than three points because they beat XXXXX Inverness CT rather than XXXXX Brechin,
How dare you imply that Celtic are capable of beating ICT! Butcher or no Butcher.
- Sunlit Forres
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Re: UK O League
obody wrote:If you wanted more people to participate, you could, for example, add the long results to the bottom of the elite, so if the slowest elite was 15th, the fastest long runner for ranking purposes would be 16th.
Definitely a good idea. And why stop there? 'S' course could go after 'L' course, and for all classes, not jut M/W21.
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