Currently the ranking system does not include night events. (I think the reason is that it was felt that night events produce some "unusual" results, and that they weren't "reliable" enough for inclusion in the rankings.)
I think they should be included. I thought I'd test opinion...
If you think they shouldn't be ranking events, then why not?
Should night events be ranking events?
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
70 posts
• Page 1 of 5 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Should night events be ranking events?
Martin Ward, SYO (Chair) & SPOOK.
I'm a 1%er. Are you?
I'm a 1%er. Are you?
-
Spookster - god
- Posts: 2267
- Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:49 pm
- Location: Sheffield
Re: Should night events be ranking events?
Now that I've got a big light - yes.
(Which says it all, really.)
(Which says it all, really.)
-
Roger - diehard
- Posts: 652
- Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:49 pm
- Location: Oxon
Re: Should night events be ranking events?
In the past I've asked for a definition of "unusual" since I suspect that other events - in particular some urban and sprint events - also produce "unusual" results. It's easy to find individual events that produce some odd results (both night and day) but that's not a justification for banning an entire set of events.
- NeilC
- addict
- Posts: 1332
- Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:03 am
- Location: SE
Re: Should night events be ranking events?
Spookster wrote:Currently the ranking system does not include night events. (I think the reason is that it was felt that night events produce some "unusual" results, and that they weren't "reliable" enough for inclusion in the rankings.) I think they should be included. I thought I'd test opinion...
This has been discussed several times here before, each time with a majority in favour especially now that the initial grounds for exclusions have been mitigated by the 10 registered finishers rule.
You're on the Board, so make it happen...maybe at the same time you could sort out all the other inconsistencies and implementation failures that BOF blessed the rankings system with
-
greywolf - addict
- Posts: 1416
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:45 pm
- Location: far far away
Re: Should night events be ranking events?
Absolutely agree they should be ranked, but dont think it'll make a huge difference given the lack of numbers involved. 4 out of 6 courses at the 2012 Scottish Night Champs had <10 finishers.
Incidentally tried to search for night results on the BOF website - hard to believe "night" isnt a category of event!
Incidentally tried to search for night results on the BOF website - hard to believe "night" isnt a category of event!
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
- andypat
- god
- Posts: 2856
- Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:58 pm
- Location: Houston, we have a problem.
Re: Should night events be ranking events?
greywolf wrote:This has been discussed several times here before, each time with a majority in favour especially now that the initial grounds for exclusions have been mitigated by the 10 registered finishers rule.
That's what I thought.
greywolf wrote:You're on the Board, so make it happen...maybe at the same time you could sort out all the other inconsistencies and implementation failures that BOF blessed the rankings system with
Including night events requires a minor rule change (which I'm trying to get included for Jan 2013 version of the rules), but no change to the ranking system itself (I think). The ranking system administrator(s) just won't tick the "exclude from rankings" option in the events database.
Sorting out other "inconsistencies and implementation failures" (whatever they are) sounds like it might need amendment to the system, which costs more time and money. That's probably best dealt with by the new Event Systems Group.
Martin Ward, SYO (Chair) & SPOOK.
I'm a 1%er. Are you?
I'm a 1%er. Are you?
-
Spookster - god
- Posts: 2267
- Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:49 pm
- Location: Sheffield
Re: Should night events be ranking events?
Of course BNC should be ranked and probably other regional Night Champs. Generally includes the better orienteers anyway and it's more technical competition. No of competitors rule operates as with other events. Including night events seems perfectly logical given the other curious (and low attendance) events, often on non-technical urban areas, now offering ranking points.
- ianandmonika
- red
- Posts: 186
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:03 pm
Re: Should night events be ranking events?
Ian, you'd have got a nice big fat, well-deserved score at BNC this year
Of course night events with sufficient runners should be included.
Of course night events with sufficient runners should be included.
- Gnitworp
- addict
- Posts: 1093
- Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:20 am
Re: Should night events be ranking events?
Should night events be ranking events?
Yes!
Yes!
- swat
- orange
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:33 pm
- Location: Bramley
Re: Should night events be ranking events?
ianandmonika wrote:Of course BNC should be ranked and probably other regional Night Champs. Generally includes the better orienteers anyway and it's more technical competition. No of competitors rule operates as with other events. Including night events seems perfectly logical given the other curious (and low attendance) events, often on non-technical urban areas, now offering ranking points.
Agreed.
- cbg
- red
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 10:45 pm
Re: Should night events be ranking events?
I believe there is far more sense in ranking night events than urban events, so since the latter are ranked then so should the former.
In the old system there were some people who got some pretty good scores at night compared to day (me included), but the system had a couple of rejigs which meant any descrepancies became minor and less so probably than that you see for urban events (and yes I often get good scores in urban compared to forest).
The reasons I suspect night events gave inconsistent results when they were previous included (was it 4-8 years ago):
* Smaller number of people on each course (rules now account for this and indeed already did before the new system came in)
* Specialists could run almost as fast at night as in the day by taking sensible safe routes whereas other strong day orienteers (bless em) kept trying to go straight!
* Discrepancies in headgear - some chaps had the bright stuff, others didn't. With newer lower cost LED bright stuff then this effect is significantly lessened.
BTW we could also do with guidance on 2 part sprint type events which are both interval start (i.e. not mini-mass, chasing or other head to head):
* Some events give you 2 separate ranking scores (for instance if you have a qualifier and then interval-start final)
* Others add the two together (which is a shame if you have a flyer in one and mispunch in the other).
The key thing here is that you don't always know which it'll be till it appears on the BOF rankings website.
In the old system there were some people who got some pretty good scores at night compared to day (me included), but the system had a couple of rejigs which meant any descrepancies became minor and less so probably than that you see for urban events (and yes I often get good scores in urban compared to forest).
The reasons I suspect night events gave inconsistent results when they were previous included (was it 4-8 years ago):
* Smaller number of people on each course (rules now account for this and indeed already did before the new system came in)
* Specialists could run almost as fast at night as in the day by taking sensible safe routes whereas other strong day orienteers (bless em) kept trying to go straight!
* Discrepancies in headgear - some chaps had the bright stuff, others didn't. With newer lower cost LED bright stuff then this effect is significantly lessened.
BTW we could also do with guidance on 2 part sprint type events which are both interval start (i.e. not mini-mass, chasing or other head to head):
* Some events give you 2 separate ranking scores (for instance if you have a qualifier and then interval-start final)
* Others add the two together (which is a shame if you have a flyer in one and mispunch in the other).
The key thing here is that you don't always know which it'll be till it appears on the BOF rankings website.
JK
- JK
- diehard
- Posts: 748
- Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:22 pm
- Location: Warrington :-(
Re: Should night events be ranking events?
Just for information, the IOF has just confirmed that Night Events are not eligible to be WREs.
Regarding dual Sprint races, the intention has always been that both races are eligible (separately) for rankings points.
Regarding dual Sprint races, the intention has always been that both races are eligible (separately) for rankings points.
Last edited by DJM on Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- DJM
- diehard
- Posts: 979
- Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:19 pm
- Location: Wye Valley
Re: Should night events be ranking events?
JK wrote:
Leaving aside that the IOF awards no medals for night races, the fact that it treats Sprint, Middle and Long equally at WOC level more than justifies the inclusion of Sprint and Urban races in our own rankings system.
This is impeccable logic ... if the premise could be justified!I believe there is far more sense in ranking night events than urban events, so since the latter are ranked then so should the former.
Leaving aside that the IOF awards no medals for night races, the fact that it treats Sprint, Middle and Long equally at WOC level more than justifies the inclusion of Sprint and Urban races in our own rankings system.
- DJM
- diehard
- Posts: 979
- Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:19 pm
- Location: Wye Valley
Re: Should night events be ranking events?
BOF rules say
JK's post is a response to the rules as they stand. And I happen to agree with him - night events are no more likely than urban events to give anomalous results.
You justify the exclusion of night events because the IOF does not include night events in their rankings. Can you point me to the BOF rule that says “Events are only included in the rankings if the event type is included in IOF rankings”. I don’t think there is one. Your post appears to be a response to a rule you've just made up.
Incidentally, what is the IOF justification for excluding night events?
1.2.2 Night events, Relay, Score, Chasing Start and other mass start events may give anomalous results and are excluded from the Rankings scheme.
JK's post is a response to the rules as they stand. And I happen to agree with him - night events are no more likely than urban events to give anomalous results.
You justify the exclusion of night events because the IOF does not include night events in their rankings. Can you point me to the BOF rule that says “Events are only included in the rankings if the event type is included in IOF rankings”. I don’t think there is one. Your post appears to be a response to a rule you've just made up.
Incidentally, what is the IOF justification for excluding night events?
- frostbite
- light green
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:48 pm
Re: Should night events be ranking events?
On the other hand, the IOF seem quite happy to give world ranking points to a whole range of different mass-start events which would be excluded from the BOF rankings.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
-
Scott - god
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:43 am
- Location: in the queue for the ice-cream van
70 posts
• Page 1 of 5 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 84 guests