beoc should be mandatory
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In fact, it's back to the old problem - make it a selection race and the squaddies will turn up. Make it part of the original all encompassing British Champs and you have a pretty good chance the middle and bottom of the field will turn up. As has been said a million times before, the best and fittest orienteers will still win whatever the terrain - bring the champs back together I say!
Will? We've got proper fire now!
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Becks - god
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srollins wrote:I agree - this means the rest of the orienteering world actually take an interest in what we do.
Yes, because at the moment they couldn't care less. And despite my poll the rest of UK orienteering outside the little squad bubble never will care less about people finishing outside the top ten at WOC.
It would make it easier to explain to the rest of the orienteering world why we should be spending their (and taxpayers) money to support people who live abroad and/or only want to race abroad.
Graeme
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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But surely it works both ways? Squaddies should also take an interest in ordinary orienteers. In most sports the elite are the key drivers of the sports public image, however I think that outdoor pursuit centres and schools are the main channals for promoting orinteering at the moment, even if this image is not always correct.
IMO It seems that some of the elite do have a fairly selfish attitude to oreinteering, wanting everything in terms of BOF funding and elite fixtures. Most oreinteers go out for the chalenge of pitting themselves against the map on a course that suits them in terms of distance and climb. We all have our standards of perfection and not everyone aspires to being elite. It should be remebered that the majority of people who keep the sport alive by organising and planning all events, not just the district and national ones who promote the sport in schools and form the backbone of BOF are people who enjoy orienteering at a recreational level because of the constraints of their body/age/children or career.
As has been stated so many times on this forum, we should start by ensuring that we are presenting a coherent image within the current population of participants, and I think that the elite competitions do not hold much appeal for many orienteers as we get the most out of oreinteering by participating rather than watching others as happens in football. You will only ever get elite orinteers going to an elite only event so to intergrate the two not-so-different-groups you should have a combined BOC and BEOC.
IMO It seems that some of the elite do have a fairly selfish attitude to oreinteering, wanting everything in terms of BOF funding and elite fixtures. Most oreinteers go out for the chalenge of pitting themselves against the map on a course that suits them in terms of distance and climb. We all have our standards of perfection and not everyone aspires to being elite. It should be remebered that the majority of people who keep the sport alive by organising and planning all events, not just the district and national ones who promote the sport in schools and form the backbone of BOF are people who enjoy orienteering at a recreational level because of the constraints of their body/age/children or career.
As has been stated so many times on this forum, we should start by ensuring that we are presenting a coherent image within the current population of participants, and I think that the elite competitions do not hold much appeal for many orienteers as we get the most out of oreinteering by participating rather than watching others as happens in football. You will only ever get elite orinteers going to an elite only event so to intergrate the two not-so-different-groups you should have a combined BOC and BEOC.
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- blue
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I agree about combining BOC/BEOC. However, I think there is some misunderstanding of elite funding. BOF does not fund anyone to live abroad, or to live anywhere else for that matter. There are a few top runners who receive sports council funding sourced from the lottery. Don't know that there is any taxpayers money going to this either.
Look at the elite squad and you will find people juggling their jobs, training, travelling to competitions and still finding time to give talks at junior events such as the Lakeside 15's weekend, British Schools or the JIRCs.
Look at the elite squad and you will find people juggling their jobs, training, travelling to competitions and still finding time to give talks at junior events such as the Lakeside 15's weekend, British Schools or the JIRCs.
- Guest
Not even a few top runners get lottery funding anymore... I understand even Jamies is/has lost his. But the elite are still correct to focus on themselves... that is the way to succeed. They can put back once thier elite carrerr is gone... until that point theyu should 'take' more than 'give'
- gross2004
gross2004 wrote:until that point theyu should 'take' more than 'give'
Probably true. So it's back to the powers that be to ensure that what's best for the elite of this country is good for orienteering as a whole - e.g. british champs is a selection race therefore elites will come over.
Graeme is right that most of orienteering in this country really doesn't care much about outside 10 top at WOC, even though finishing 22nd or something in the world is an amazing result. But that's not the point, 22nd one time, 1st the next with appropriate support? Then all of a sudden we're interested and proud to have them as British.
Greg Rusedski for example - British when he's in the US open final, Canadian when he's out in the first round. Various racing drivers is another example - living in Monaco so they don't pay their due taxes for the country, but if they're doing well we love em anyway.
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FatBoy - addict
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The wider/deeper issue is what is the sport for anyway?
If it is for the personal pleasure of those taking part, then the elite can do what they want, just like the rest of us - why should any time or money go into developing them if it is about personal pursuit of excellence? - If we want them to come to an event we offer good prizes including selection for other prestigious events, but there is no real reason beyond general admiration and interest for other orienteers or the public to care and we have no more right to expect them to do anything than we have to expect other orienteers to do what we want!
If part of what the sport is about is "development" - increasing the number of people who take part and increasing the "quality" of the sport - then the elite have an important role to play. They gain attention and raise the profile of the sport, but only by winning or doing well at things. In these days of "Sport England-Lottery Money" they also have a critical role in raising money for further development and paying for such things as development officers. Orienteering as a whole needs a strong elite if it wants "development".
I agree with others that the "deal" needs to be better spelt out in terms of expectations. It is a classic case of "give and take".
"If you are a member of the national elite squad we will give you xxx and in return we expect you to do yyy".
The confusion at the moment is something to do with both xxx and yyy being very vague indeed, as is ongoing "membership" of the national elite squad(s). Shame, because if it was spelt out, it could allow better planning of events, training schedules etc..
If it is for the personal pleasure of those taking part, then the elite can do what they want, just like the rest of us - why should any time or money go into developing them if it is about personal pursuit of excellence? - If we want them to come to an event we offer good prizes including selection for other prestigious events, but there is no real reason beyond general admiration and interest for other orienteers or the public to care and we have no more right to expect them to do anything than we have to expect other orienteers to do what we want!
If part of what the sport is about is "development" - increasing the number of people who take part and increasing the "quality" of the sport - then the elite have an important role to play. They gain attention and raise the profile of the sport, but only by winning or doing well at things. In these days of "Sport England-Lottery Money" they also have a critical role in raising money for further development and paying for such things as development officers. Orienteering as a whole needs a strong elite if it wants "development".
I agree with others that the "deal" needs to be better spelt out in terms of expectations. It is a classic case of "give and take".
"If you are a member of the national elite squad we will give you xxx and in return we expect you to do yyy".
The confusion at the moment is something to do with both xxx and yyy being very vague indeed, as is ongoing "membership" of the national elite squad(s). Shame, because if it was spelt out, it could allow better planning of events, training schedules etc..
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chrisecurtis - red
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You live and learn - I agree that the membership and organisation of the elite "squads" is a little clearer than I thought, but I can't find a list on the new or old BOF sites, or a description of the selection process.
Most interesting was the blurb on the new website
So there we have it - the purpose is to produce medallists at the WOC. Nothing more, nothing less. So I suppose if attendance at BEOC fits that goal, then it is in, otherwise it is not. From the squad programme (http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/documents/elite/doc36.xls), it was not.
Most interesting was the blurb on the new website
The GB Squad is supported by the World Class Programme, which is funded by UKSport and Sport England. The World Class Programme includes: START, JUNIOR and SENIOR SQUADS. [each has a "performance" and "development" section for those competing and those preparing to compete] The aim of the Programme is to produce medallists at the annual World Championships. We take athletes from any age, and we give them support and advice on their technical and physical training to help them to achieve their goals.
So there we have it - the purpose is to produce medallists at the WOC. Nothing more, nothing less. So I suppose if attendance at BEOC fits that goal, then it is in, otherwise it is not. From the squad programme (http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/documents/elite/doc36.xls), it was not.
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chrisecurtis - red
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chrisecurtis wrote:So there we have it - the purpose is to produce medallists at the WOC. Nothing more, nothing less.
Not an entirely accurate interpretation.
The GB Squad is supported by the World Class Programme,
... blah, blah...
The aim of the Programme is to produce medallists at the annual World Championships. We take athletes from any age, and we give them support and advice on their technical and physical training to help them to achieve their goals.
The aim/purpose of the Squad does not necessarily equate entirely to the aims/purpose of the World Class Programme.
The Squad may persue other aims / goals for the improvement of British orienteering, it should do in my opinion, though these efforts might not be funded out of the World Class Programme.
If you could run forever ......
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Kitch - god
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i the question was put badly, i would rather win WOC. which comes down to I would rather go to WOC than win BEOC, but I would still want to win BEOC. It depends at what level your at, if your at the top then I guess WOC, World Cups etc will always be your main dream, but on your way to realising it you should win BEOC. I think most people in our WOC teams have won BEOC, maybe not the younger ones, but I'm sure they will.
I think to make a national championships compulsary for national team selection is a bad idea. Nothing should be compulsary, because that may force people to run when they shouldnt to get/stay in the team. The only thing compulsary to be in the national team is that you are amongst the best in the country and on your way to being amongst the best in the world.
To get more people running you would need to make the event more prestigious, but the only way to really do that is to have more people running, the best people running. I think you just have to accept that some people have bigger visions that BEOC... WOC, and that should be there main aim, and we shouldn't be forcing them to disrupt their preporation to come to BEOC just because we think they should. I would rather see the whole team perform to their best at WOC than to have them take the top 7 places at BEOC.
I think to make a national championships compulsary for national team selection is a bad idea. Nothing should be compulsary, because that may force people to run when they shouldnt to get/stay in the team. The only thing compulsary to be in the national team is that you are amongst the best in the country and on your way to being amongst the best in the world.
To get more people running you would need to make the event more prestigious, but the only way to really do that is to have more people running, the best people running. I think you just have to accept that some people have bigger visions that BEOC... WOC, and that should be there main aim, and we shouldn't be forcing them to disrupt their preporation to come to BEOC just because we think they should. I would rather see the whole team perform to their best at WOC than to have them take the top 7 places at BEOC.
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mharky - team nopesport
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As you point out Mharky it is a catch 22
so break the circle by making it a selection race
what is so hard about that ?
people based abroad all know they have to come back once or twice a year to take part in a selection race, and do so. Just make BEOC one of those races.
As my previous post here and my post on the Winning vs Taking part thread.
Elite orienteering can't be only about WOC, there has to be regard for the development of elite orienteering, nuturing the sharp end at home, one of the responsibilities here is creating a competitive progression for people to develop their competitive ability / contol. I think BEOC should be a central part of anyone's thinking as they develop, but for that to be the case it has to remain the ultimate domestic competition.
Our best orienteers should support this by attending and giving their successors the opportunity to compete for the most prestigious title in the domestic calender.
The squad can help this by designating it a selection race and giving one more reason for people to attend.
so break the circle by making it a selection race
what is so hard about that ?
people based abroad all know they have to come back once or twice a year to take part in a selection race, and do so. Just make BEOC one of those races.
As my previous post here and my post on the Winning vs Taking part thread.
Elite orienteering can't be only about WOC, there has to be regard for the development of elite orienteering, nuturing the sharp end at home, one of the responsibilities here is creating a competitive progression for people to develop their competitive ability / contol. I think BEOC should be a central part of anyone's thinking as they develop, but for that to be the case it has to remain the ultimate domestic competition.
Our best orienteers should support this by attending and giving their successors the opportunity to compete for the most prestigious title in the domestic calender.
The squad can help this by designating it a selection race and giving one more reason for people to attend.
If you could run forever ......
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Kitch - god
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Kitch wrote:so break the circle by making it a selection race
what is so hard about that ?
people based abroad all know they have to come back once or twice a year to take part in a selection race, and do so. Just make BEOC one of those races.
T'other way round is better: make a selection race BEOC.
BEOC currently has no constraints, it can be wherever the ESG like, stand alone or tagged on to some other event. Selection races (typically) are constrained to terrain sort-of relevant to the race which is being selected for. Decide where you want a selection race - then call it BEOC.
Graeme
Last edited by graeme on Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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