I think the fairest solution would have been to void that leg because as someone else has already pointed out there was a marshall there later in the day thus not everyone was treat equally. Those who were marshalled were given assistance or they too may have went through the gate.Voiding the leg would have not benefitted the runners who used the gate as they would have only taken under a minute off their final time where as the runners who went round either because they were directed or not would have a couple of minutes at least taken off their overall time.Just my opinion I realise its a tough decision for the controller as what ever decision he made is not going to please all.
Paul
Penrith Urban
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Re: Penrith Urban
andypat wrote:My overriding concern is that I feel the map should adequately represent what is on the ground.
the opposing view, presumably, being...
the map should adequately convey to the orienteer the information they need to complete the course legally at race pace
Normally these are one and the same, but when in conflict I'd always go with the second.
Two examples:
NeilC: Show one uncrossible fence despite two on the ground
EddieH: Expand areas of out of bounds to avoid people attempting illegal routes.
This is the same discussion as is going on over on the Silver Howe thread.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Penrith Urban
I dont think I'd necessarily disagree with you on either point in practice. I think our area of divergence was with the mapping of apparently public open land as OOB - I am uneasy about that (as in WOC sprint).
(I can give you a good example at Dechmont and Deans where a track in the wet grass had appeared across an area of garden that looked similar to the surrounding public grassland - at my pace I was able to realise and run round it - but presumably some better orienteers hadnt noticed...)
But the above are issues where the map is adjusted to suit. The issue at Penrith was where the terrain changed to create the mismatch.
I assume that you wouldnt map an open gate as a solid back line?
And if you wouldnt, but in race conditions there was an open gate in an uncrossable fence amongst what was a highly complex area of the map, could you in all honesty say that the competitor is 100% to blame for making the error of going through it?
Its virtually impossible to see on routegadget but I thought ESOC's solution to Schrodingers gateways with the purple line was perfectly adequate - not aware of any issues in the race.
http://www.esoc.routegadget.co.uk/cgi-bin/reitti.cgi?act=map&id=20&kieli=
Clive Masson's comments post race
(I can give you a good example at Dechmont and Deans where a track in the wet grass had appeared across an area of garden that looked similar to the surrounding public grassland - at my pace I was able to realise and run round it - but presumably some better orienteers hadnt noticed...)
But the above are issues where the map is adjusted to suit. The issue at Penrith was where the terrain changed to create the mismatch.
I assume that you wouldnt map an open gate as a solid back line?
And if you wouldnt, but in race conditions there was an open gate in an uncrossable fence amongst what was a highly complex area of the map, could you in all honesty say that the competitor is 100% to blame for making the error of going through it?
Its virtually impossible to see on routegadget but I thought ESOC's solution to Schrodingers gateways with the purple line was perfectly adequate - not aware of any issues in the race.
http://www.esoc.routegadget.co.uk/cgi-bin/reitti.cgi?act=map&id=20&kieli=
Clive Masson's comments post race
The biggest challenge were the gates, wynds and doors off the street. These could be open or closed on the owners’ whim. Some were route choices while other important navigational features. I chose to map them as open but apply a purple line to indicate that they may be open or closed but were also out of bounds.
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
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Re: Penrith Urban
andypat wrote:Its virtually impossible to see on routegadget but I thought ESOC's solution to Schrodingers gateways with the purple line was perfectly adequate - not aware of any issues in the race.
Don't see how that helps - you have to decide and amend the map several days before with purple lines instead on black ones. After which gates are opened and locked and reopened. Easy to miss one, and a gate mapped "open" when actually closed is more of a problem than vice versa - e.g. check out Jegor's route 15-16 in the race you quote
(not every issue runs to 7 pages here!).
andypat wrote:100% to blame
I'm not a fan of blame. If someone makes a mistake, they should take the consequences.
In the case you say, the competitor should not benefit from their mistake - time penalty, dq, whatever. Repeating a nice analogy earlier, they are "to blame" and "a cheat" in exactly the same way as a false-starting sprinter (i.e. 100% to blame,
0% cheat)
Please pm me if there are issues with Dechmont map - it's likely I went there once and made an arbitrary decision about olive vs yellow. I didn't study the land ownership register
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Penrith Urban
Planner's comments now on the BL website
http://borderliners.btck.co.uk/BLResults
http://borderliners.btck.co.uk/BLResults
- usuallylast
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Re: Penrith Urban
graeme wrote:
Don't see how that helps - you have to decide and amend the map several days before with purple lines instead on black ones. After which gates are opened and locked and reopened. Easy to miss one, and a gate mapped "open" when actually closed is more of a problem than vice versa - e.g. check out Jegor's route 15-16 in the race you quote
(not every issue runs to 7 pages here!).
I'll see your Jegor and raise you Andy's route from 6-7 on here!
http://www.tay.routegadget.co.uk/tay/reitti.cgi?act=map&id=6&kieli=
Now I'm not excusing his error, but I can understand how in the heat of battle if you are running round a fence looking for the first gate (because the other isnt mapped as a gate) and you come across an open gate you go through it. Of course it isnt in the right place but....
If however this gate was mapped as a gate but with a purple line across it, your excuses start to run out as you should have been looking for the second gate in any case. And you are less likely to make an honest mistake. Of course you cant really comment too much since you had to take some hard calls on the day - but I hope you see why I am thinking that way at least?
graeme wrote:If someone makes a mistake, they should take the consequences.
In the case you say, the competitor should not benefit from their mistake - time penalty, dq, whatever.
Yes - whatever, but in my view NOT the same consequence as the person who climbs the wall in a serious attempt to cheat. Maybe we need to increase their consequences instead eg a ban?
graeme wrote:Please pm me if there are issues with Dechmont map - it's likely I went there once and made an arbitrary decision about olive vs yellow. I didn't study the land ownership register
Sorry that was a bit mean of me - it wasnt a criticism of the map, which I am sure is correct, but the ease with which you can make an error if what looks like public grass isnt. I'm rubbish at posting pics so its the wee olive trianlge jutting out below 3 in the brown. Lots of people must have short cutted over this - well tracked through the wet.
http://www.interlopers.routegadget.co.uk/cgi-bin/reitti.cgi?act=map&id=15&kieli=
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
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Re: Penrith Urban
All this further discussion has underlined to me is that 'solutions' such as short bits of purple line (probably unreadable/indistinguishable at the width of a gate) are simply adding complexity without making the situation any more straightforward, rather the reverse.
The mappers mapped what was a clear boundary that was not to be crossed. On the day, the boundary had a gap in it, the open gate. But the boundary was still clearly there, and it was still not to be crossed. I repeat from a previous post: nobody was unaware that they had crossed a boundary, what they were unaware of was that it was not to be crossed. That was simply a misreading of the map. The map was clear, and does not need to be made ever more confusing with scratty extra stubs of colour, which will almost certainly be completely unreadable at speed, and only lead to even more complaints.
If one starts insisting on all closed gates (merely shut, or locked) be marked with purple, what happens if one solitary gate is missed, and marked in black. Void that leg too? All unnecessary complexity will do is lead to an even greater likelihood of something going wrong. The map was fine.
The mappers mapped what was a clear boundary that was not to be crossed. On the day, the boundary had a gap in it, the open gate. But the boundary was still clearly there, and it was still not to be crossed. I repeat from a previous post: nobody was unaware that they had crossed a boundary, what they were unaware of was that it was not to be crossed. That was simply a misreading of the map. The map was clear, and does not need to be made ever more confusing with scratty extra stubs of colour, which will almost certainly be completely unreadable at speed, and only lead to even more complaints.
If one starts insisting on all closed gates (merely shut, or locked) be marked with purple, what happens if one solitary gate is missed, and marked in black. Void that leg too? All unnecessary complexity will do is lead to an even greater likelihood of something going wrong. The map was fine.
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awk - god
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Re: Penrith Urban
Just to throw a different comment in the mix - how did people cope with the scale? I heard comments even from young 'eyes' that the alleyways were very difficult to see and that the colour could be mistaken for out of bounds. Any ways round this? I think it was Zokko that had this problem (amongst others) and Sue FR even mistook a contour crossing the alleyway as a black line! (sorry Sue to name and shame )
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Re: Penrith Urban
As a middle aged, glasses wearing, relative newcomer to orienteering I had the same problem working out which of the alleyways were open. This was also my first foray into the mean streets of urban. By the time I had my run it was raining and I was struggling to see anything, never mind the map. However I'm not sure a larger map flapping wetly about in the wind would have helped much and I think I'll make sure I have some sort of magnifier for next time. To be honest, I have the same problem in dark forests and just accept it as part of the challenge.
I did wonder if the contours were necessary on an urban map - I didn't really make use of them and indeed I mistook them for other lines a couple of times. Having said that, I don't know Penrith all that well but I do know which bits are uphill, so perhaps it would be a different matter in another town or city.
I did wonder if the contours were necessary on an urban map - I didn't really make use of them and indeed I mistook them for other lines a couple of times. Having said that, I don't know Penrith all that well but I do know which bits are uphill, so perhaps it would be a different matter in another town or city.
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Re: Penrith Urban
usuallylast wrote:I did wonder if the contours were necessary on an urban map..........perhaps it would be a different matter in another town or city.
Like Great Malvern you mean?
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Mrs H - god
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Re: Penrith Urban
Mrs H wrote:usuallylast wrote:I did wonder if the contours were necessary on an urban map..........perhaps it would be a different matter in another town or city.
Like Great Malvern you mean?
You know those arrows they put on steep roads on OS maps.............
Possibly the slowest Orienteer in the NE but maybe above average at 114kg
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AndyC - addict
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Re: Penrith Urban
For those of us who didn't go to Penrith is the map going to be put up on Routegadget
so we can see what runners perceived as problems?
so we can see what runners perceived as problems?
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epocian - green
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Re: Penrith Urban
I hope to have Penrith Urban available on RouteGadget before the weekend, after I get confirmation that the results are deemed to be final.
- usuallylast
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Re: Penrith Urban
AWK your last post put it in a nutshell. Excellent summary.
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Re: Penrith Urban
I didn't attend the event, but was shown the map last night.
The first thing that struck me was that the colours were generally very bold. The usual settings we have for urban maps don't seem to have been used - or maybe the specific printer used needed the usual colour settings to be adjusted.
It may be this factor that has impacted on some of the legibility issues raised in recent posts on this thread.
.
The first thing that struck me was that the colours were generally very bold. The usual settings we have for urban maps don't seem to have been used - or maybe the specific printer used needed the usual colour settings to be adjusted.
It may be this factor that has impacted on some of the legibility issues raised in recent posts on this thread.
.
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