Georeferencing of OCAD and OS copyright

[Freefall]

We may be getting nearer closure on GPS tracking for Oban 6 Day Day 3 but I would like the background map to be the orienteering map rather than Google or OS OpenSpace free mapping. I assume that in order to show GPS tracks on Routegadget there must be a way of georeferencing the map? I can certainly do this in GIS and it does create an appropriate projection file. Is it something that is easily done in OCAD if the map was done on a local grid?
I have been informed that displaying orienteering maps (which may have been based on OS maps) on screen in public may breach copyright or that a fee would have to be paid? Is this correct and has anyone had this issue before? The British National Grid is not owned by the OS so if GPS was used to define control points they are not involved.

[redkite]

Freefall
Speak to Paul Frost who will sort you out on this one

[Forest Gump]

If OCAD is like AutoCAD as long as you know the top left/bottom right coordinates then Yes you can georeference a map in OCAD. Whether you can then export it and load it into routegadget is not something I know anything about (does routegadget even support georeferenced maps ). With regard OS Copyright I think you may have been misinformed.

Essentially most O maps are only "derived" and not copied from OS based data (either raster 10k, 25k etc. data height information or aerial photography). Whilst in the past there have been relatively strict rules with regard what you can and can't do with this once an O map has been produced, the OS have over that last 18 months or so greatly reduced the restrictions on use. My understanding is that BOF have an appropriate licence for maps so that each club doesn't have to have its own (so do I would assume most major mapping companies). Whilst the displaying of the map on the web (e.g. via routegadget) is covered by a different set of "rules", because there will not be any financial gain or sponsorship/advertising material associated with the image/webpage that the map is being displayed on, then you are allowed to display whatever you like at no cost. (essentially displaying the map on a big screen for the public to see is the same as publishing it on a website)

FYI the National Grid is "technically" owned by the OS as it is actually called the OSGB36 datum (Ordnance Survey Great Britain 1936, based on the Airy 1830 ellipsoid), and was introduced after the retriangulation of Britian between 1936–1962.

[mharky]

Sent you a PM Colin

[smf]

My understanding is that BOF have an appropriate licence for maps so that each club doesn't have to have its own (so do I would assume most major mapping companies).

Yes, but only if the map is on the BOF register (http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/index.php?pg=58#map_registration) which not all maps are. This includes reregistering maps after resurveying.

Whilst the displaying of the map on the web (e.g. via routegadget) is covered by a different set of "rules", because there will not be any financial gain or sponsorship/advertising material associated with the image/webpage that the map is being displayed on, then you are allowed to display whatever you like at no cost. (essentially displaying the map on a big screen for the public to see is the same as publishing it on a website)

Not 100% true,

http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/index.php?pg=58#ordnance_survey states,

"The size limit of maps that clubs may include on their website must not be greater than 200 sq. cms of paper at the original scale. The image on the internet cannot be capable of being edited or customised in any way, neither must it disclose any addressable co-ordinates. There is also an annual reproduction charge for each image displayed of £4.75 payable to Ordnance Survey through British Orienteeing."

How many clubs pay this fee?

[Big Jon]

Maps based on a photogrammetric plot are completely free from OS copyright. There are no restrictions as to their use. All 6-Day maps (as far as I am aware) are based on photogrammetric plots, therefore no need to worry about OS and their rapacious lawyers.

[graeme]

http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/index.php?pg=58#map_registration[/url]) which not all maps are. This includes reregistering maps after resurveying.

Is there a list of registered maps somewhere? I forget which ones I've put in and the boundaries change all the time. It also says there...

All maps are examined and assessed. It is during this process that the best maps are selected for British Orienteering's annual mapping awards. Experience shows that development and maintenance of the necessary skills is best served by constructive dialogue between mapper and map users. The mapping self-assessment is part of that dialogue.
As part of the Map Assessment scheme mappers are asked to voluntarily complete a number of Self Assessment forms.

Which seems like a good idea, but I've never heard the outcome of the assessment of any of my maps.

[Scott]

Is there a list of registered maps somewhere? I forget which ones I've put in and the boundaries change all the time.

Yes, here.

No idea how you get to it from the rest of BOF website; I only know about it because Clive posted the link on Nopesport.

[smf]

No idea how you get to it from the rest of BOF website; I only know about it because Clive posted the link on Nopesport.

Officials - Mappers

The "Map database" link at the top of the page takes you down to the paragraph,

"A searchable database of maps registered with British Orienteering for the whole of the UK can be viewed on-line here."

I only knew it existed, as I had seen it on the previous website. I had to do a search to see if it was still there, a few weeks ago to see if one of our new areas had been registered.

[Freefall]

I have extracted references of all the maps of Scotland and converted all the grid references into Eastings and Northings. These can then be used to populate a GIS system, or if anyone is more familiar with KML I could transform them to WGS84 for display on Google. There are a few rogue references but the GIS shows them very well. Those without grid references appear in the Scilly Isles. I am not totally sure why the list exists but it is very incomplete - I printed off an extract for TAY and many of their areas were missing. It is so much easier to read off a map than a spreadsheet. If anyone wants to help publish to the web I can supply shp files.

[Roger]

My Didcot map wasn't on the TVOC list but I found it allocated to SOC. Perhaps SOC has nabbed some of those TAY maps too?

[paul]

I have extracted references of all the maps of Scotland and converted all the grid references into Eastings and Northings. These can then be used to populate a GIS system, or if anyone is more familiar with KML I could transform them to WGS84 for display on Google. There are a few rogue references but the GIS shows them very well. Those without grid references appear in the Scilly Isles. I am not totally sure why the list exists but it is very incomplete - I printed off an extract for TAY and many of their areas were missing. It is so much easier to read off a map than a spreadsheet. If anyone wants to help publish to the web I can supply shp files.

See http://www.oobrien.com/map/maps.php

[Paul Frost]

RouteGadget UK and the clubs that use it are covered by a licence that I pay the OS for.

It's nothing to do with profit making (other than the OS wanting to make a profit). From what I understand there is no "negotiated agreement' with the OS, you just accept whatever terms they set.

But as Jon points out, a lot of the Scottish maps are produced from PG plots rather than os data, so should not be restricted. However the OS have on many occasions claimed that grid lines on a map are owned by the OS and so are derived from OS data and a licence fee payable for all uses, print and web. I think this is still a grey area and not clearly resolved.

Maps on RouteGadget don't need to be georeferenced to display GPS tracks. When you upload a GPS track it is just a line with a particular shape and has no scale. The map is only a JPG image of the the OCAD map and so is not scaled either. I recently added an article on RouteGadget UK about how to convert the plotted route to actual K's run, which explains some of the issues. All reference points are just relative positions to each other, rather than a grid reference.

[Freefall]

Good to bring all this stuff to our attention. Thanks for the input. One reason I was keen to map areas on my GIS was to compare against other public domain data sets such as Forestry Commission boundaries. I have also put out a request (when the data is ready) for details of the latest National Forest Inventory including details of Native Woodland Target maps. There might be a hidden gem of a forest waiting to be discovered (in this neck of the woods anyway).

[Big Jon]

"However the OS have on many occasions claimed that grid lines on a map are owned by the OS and so are derived from OS data and a licence fee payable for all uses, print and web. I think this is still a grey area and not clearly resolved."

I think there was a court case many years ago, brought by Gordon Petrie of Glasgow University Topographic Science Department, that decided Grid References were public property. This was the starting point for the acceptance by OS that photogrammetric plots that used grid references for scaling the air photos did not need to pay OS royalty.
(If I am wrong I will be happy to be corrected on this point)