Chasing Start Formats etc

[PhilJ]

Fairly open discussion to ensue I hope, but what experiences have you had with chasing starts for multi day events, good experience, bad experience?
What format worked well, which didn't.
How was your start time on the last day calculated? best of 3/5 days to count...cumulative times for best 3/5
Only people within 1hr of 1st place starter in the "official" chasing start everyone else starts randomly in 1 minute intervals.
Did the chasing start add to the whole experience or detract from it?
What are the pros and cons of a chasing start on a multi day event..you have to stay until the last day to get a postion, maybe put off by having this thrust upon you?
Tension - winner not known until the last day, all to play for...adds to the overall experience.
Chasing start for ALL classes not just elites, manpower on last day increased, pressure to get start list out on evening before last day
Lots of number crunching
As with the current scoring systems for multi days, there seem to be 4'ish versions around and no-one can agree which is the best/fairest, would a chasing start just complicate things further?

[Big Jon]

Chasing starts are great fun, but they have some issues - one of which is particularly important for a 5 or 6 day event - everyone has to run all days to count for a chasing start so the longer an event the higher the proportion of non competitive runners in the chasing start.

[graeme]

I think they're fun. No need to hang around after you've run to see who won. Downside is that family members have uncertain/widely spread starttimes.

Best format is one which is clearly explained to competitors so its easy for them to work out their own starttime, within 10mins or so, and avoids everyone showing up at 9am to see when they're starting. (If you assume now that you can get startlists on the web in good time, then you're ignoring all the evidence of actual practice!)

Worst aspect is hanging around at the end if you're way off the pace (for organisers, sending the slowest people off last will add an hour to your day...). This suggests not counting all days, and setting the non-chasing people off first.

As you said, different people have different ideas about fairness. Safest to ignore anyone who claims to base their prejudice on "fairer competition".

People want to be in the chase start: a 1 hour window is quite tight and with sensible sized classes you may find people 1hour down are still within 1 min of each other. You only want the last 20% or so not in the mass start.

[Spookster]

Chasing starts add interest and excitement to a 2-day or 2-race event, but are very difficult to do properly (fairly) for a multiday 5 or 6 day event.

[King Penguin]

I haven't checked, but I've a feeling I saw somewhere that chasing start events are not eligible for ranking points. No doubt Scott will confirm or put me right.
I agree they add an extra dimension, but also extra work for the organisers.

Families is a two-edged sword. It could mean a very long day for a travelling group / car who would prefer to start closer together, but it cauld also mean both parents can't run as they can't get split starts far enough apart.

[mharky]

I've been DSQ a couple of times at the O-ringen. It kind of ruins the whole week. You get a run, and sometimes a quite competitive one will all the other DSQs, but you know it's for nothing.

After 5 days of racing, it's not really a chasing start either. The time gaps are quite big by that point, each day just adds to the gaps. Caddihoe Chase is great fun, as was the OO-Cup when it was just 3 days.

The Scottish 6-days elite format is also pretty good. In 2009 there was a chasing start on Tentsmuir, midway through the week, and then a reverse order start on the last day. But it means you do have to complete every day.

On a 5 day event, it could be quite fun to have a chasing start on the 3rd day.

[EddieH]

Chasing starts when you drop days are horrible as it is impossible to produce a sensible formula to generate the start list, although they have improved since the ludicrous first implementation in the elite at the Scottish 6 days where I had people starting 5 minutes behind me who had consistently been 20+ minutes per day behind

I love proper chasing starts but fail to see how you can offer this in a British 6 day, where nearly everyone expects to run, other than to offer it to th elites only.

[Scott]

I haven't checked, but I've a feeling I saw somewhere that chasing start events are not eligible for ranking points. No doubt Scott will confirm or put me right.

You are correct, they're not eligible. I believe this is something to do with the "unusual" distribution of times you're supposed get because of people bunching together in packs (although DJM may correct me on this). Personally I think it would be interesting to try test-running a few sets of chasing start results through the system to see whether or not the points do actually look sensible.

On a 5 day event, it could be quite fun to have a chasing start on the 3rd day.

Indeed. I think this is a better idea than having one on the last day, when the spread of times will be twice as big and more people will have been previously DSQed.

[seabird]

I agree that Chasing Starts are much better when used for 2 race events.

If starts are evenly spaced, do they then count for ranking points - or is it just the first race that counts? I ask because last year we had a two legged urban race. The second race set off in Chasing Order but at evenly spaced intervals (I think it was 1 minute- but may have been 30 secs) for safety reasons.

And if evenly spaced starts, what is the a smallest interval that would be tolerated for ranking points between start times? 30 secs? 15 sec? etc etc

The Chasing start formula suits itself particularly well to the 1 day formula of a short urban race followed by a short cross country.

[andy]

A two race event with a prologue and chase (i.e. ESOC Sprint / JOK Chasing Sprint) works very well.
I don't think it works so well at a multi day event except, perhaps, in the elite classes. The reliance on running every day to make it viable kind of removes the ease at which you could apply it to all the classes due to helpers being excluded (this is one of the main reasons why the 6 days is 4/6 days to count for the majority of classes). Although with the Croeso results fudge factor time thingy (note my technical description ) you might find it works?

[Tatty]

You have to make sure that the start can cope the the sometimes huge numbers of people. In the past one of my sons, an M 8, went off in the lead so we told him to keep ahead of his 2nd place rival. He did this, but the second finisher was declared the winner!!

[Tatty]

You have to make sure that the start can cope the the sometimes huge numbers of people. In the past one of my sons, an M 8, went off in the lead so we told him to keep ahead of his 2nd place rival. He did this, but the second finisher was declared the winner!!

[EddieH]

That requires more explanation Tatty. Can you elucidate?

[Spookster]

You have to make sure that the start can cope the the sometimes huge numbers of people. In the past one of my sons, an M 8, went off in the lead so we told him to keep ahead of his 2nd place rival. He did this, but the second finisher was declared the winner!!

You have to plan the chasing start base times in order not to overload the start team with huge numbers of people. Different courses can have different base times, so that you have waves of chasing starts, not one huge wave.

[andypat]

I haven't checked, but I've a feeling I saw somewhere that chasing start events are not eligible for ranking points. No doubt Scott will confirm or put me right.

You are correct, they're not eligible. I believe this is something to do with the "unusual" distribution of times you're supposed get because of people bunching together in packs (although DJM may correct me on this). Personally I think it would be interesting to try test-running a few sets of chasing start results through the system to see whether or not the points do actually look sensible.

On a 5 day event, it could be quite fun to have a chasing start on the 3rd day.

Indeed. I think this is a better idea than having one on the last day, when the spread of times will be twice as big and more people will have been previously DSQed.

I'm trying and failing to see what you would gain from that - isnt the point of a chasing start that the winner wins? (which they wouldnt on day 3 of 5). Is there another hidden benefit of a chasing start that I am missing? Have to admit my experience of these is fairly limited as I am usually in the pack. If it was day 3 wouldnt a mass start be a more appropriate alternative?