Levy Rates for Novices

[Sunlit Forres]

I've been reading through the "Students treated as Adults for Levy" and "How Should we Finance Orienteering" threads. I must say I like the enlightening newcomer's perspective from 14stoneflyer. Paul Frost talks lots of sense too.

Flyer's comments got me thinking about levy rates for novices. In our club (Moravian) we have a policy of charging adult beginners the junior entry fee if they're doing orange/TD3 or below. This £3 fee (£2 for junior club members) works fine at our small monthly local events which generally attract about 60 runners (the levy threshhold being 65). The club makes a small profit. The problem is with larger events such as this weekend's one at Darnaway. With the BOF levy as it stands (£2.15 for every adult above the 65 threshhold increasing to £3.55 for more than 210 entries) we make nothing at all, and even stand to lose money. It's even worse with major events as there's a £1.40 SOA levy to worry about too!

We want to attract adult novices to big events. We want them to experience the big-race atmosphere but we don't want to have to charge them £7 or £8 for a 3 Km run to avoid the club having to subsidise them. If all they ever see are mini events with a handful of folk we'll always be seen as a minority sport. On a rare trip down south I went to the excellent HH event at Ashridge a couple of weeks back and would have taken my big sister along who's never been orienteering.... but not for £15. She stayed at home.

I don't have a problem at all with the levy rates otherwise, but I do think it would be a positive step if the levy system could be tweaked to make big events more attractive to novice adults.

[Scott]

Looking at the Darnaway entry fees, I think if you were to charge adult novices £6 (ie. the BOF member rate) for an orange-course run at a bigger-than-usual then that wouldn't be too unreasonable. You could have a policy of charging newcomers the BOF member rate for (say) their first two orienteering events, and then requiring them to either start paying the extra £2 or join BOF. Obviously you might have to rely on competitor honesty a bit to enforce this.

I agree this becomes more problematic at the really big regional events with much higher entry fees - £6 seems okay to me for an adult running a orange course (genuine novices are like to be out for long enough that it seems like value for money!), but £13 perhaps less so. I do like the JK policy of offering reduced fees for adult "colour-coded" entries.

[smf]

I agree this becomes more problematic at the really big regional events with much higher entry fees - £6 seems okay to me for an adult running a orange course (genuine novices are like to be out for long enough that it seems like value for money!), but £13 perhaps less so. I do like the JK policy of offering reduced fees for adult "colour-coded" entries.

BOC2011 also has reduced fees for colour coded courses, as does the Scottish 6 Days. The SOA has a guideline "Entry fees for all non TD5 courses should be charged at the lower/junior rate (entrants are likely to be juniors, newcomers or injured)." for SOL's.

[Scott]

The SOA has a guideline "Entry fees for all non TD5 courses should be charged at the lower/junior rate (entrants are likely to be juniors, newcomers or injured)." for SOL's.

I didn't know about that, but I like the idea. I think it works quite well at really big events, where the junior fee is £5 or more (so the adult levy is still only a fraction of it) and the ratio of novices:experienced adults is such that the financial impact of charging a reduced novice fee is probably tiny.

I'm not sure the policy works as well at the smaller Level C-type events, like Darnaway, where the junior entry fee is about equal to the adult levy, particularly when the organising club (like Moravian) is one that works fairly hard to attract newcomers and so the ratio of novices:experienced adults might be a bit more significant. But in these cases I guess the adult BOF-member fee is normally small enough that an adult novice may be less likely to be deterred by it.

[andy]

BOC2011 also has reduced fees for colour coded courses, as does the Scottish 6 Days. The SOA has a guideline "Entry fees for all non TD5 courses should be charged at the lower/junior rate (entrants are likely to be juniors, newcomers or injured)." for SOL's.

huh!
I paid £14 for a run on Orange(!) at a SOL last year, I was quite annoyed at the time, rightly so it seems. Poor form organising club

[graeme]

I didn't know about that, but I like the idea.

Nice to get something right

This comes back to defining who is "we". The SOL's are a series, so "we the SOA" wanted consistent rules. Some people argue that "we the club" make a 'loss' on these people. Most people agree that there should be a subsidy but that "we the club" are should not pay for it: "we the BOF" should pay.

But all "we the BOF" pay really means is that "we the orienteers" pay for it through higher membership or BOF levy, while creating a more complicated system, more hassle for the organisers who have to understand it, and more need for employees at BOF to administer/check it.

[Sunlit Forres]

The SOA has a guideline

Thats' all very well, but if (like the last SOL of 2010) there are around 400 entries, the clubs adults that are charging these adult novices junior rates are still getting stung £3.55 + £1.40 levy. Admittedly the marginal costs aren't that significant with such high entry numbers but I still don't think that the organising club should take any kind of financial hit. If we can get newcomers well-and-truly hooked, the extra levy income in future will make up for the initial reduction.

We should use our showpiece events to show off, and let's face it we have something pretty special to show off, don't we? These are the events that I want newcomers to attend, and I hope that when Moray 2013 comes around we we'll be doing everything possible (financial and otherwise) to get new people taking part.

[Scott]

Given that it's an SOA rule for adults on TD4- courses at SOLs to pay the junior rate, I guess it would make sense for the SOA to only ask the junior SOA levy on those SOL entries.

But it would be harder to agree at a national level. Perhaps we need something along the line of "Where an event has a discounted entry fee for Juniors, any Seniors who pay that discounted fee should be treated as juniors for the purposes of the levy calculation"? That would cover novices paying a junior fee, students, the unwaged, etc - whoever the club thought best to offer a discount to. Maybe with a codicil along the lines of "so long as such Seniors do not exceed XX% of the total competitors at the event". But something so vague would sadly be very open to abuse, and very hard for BOF to check up on, so I doubt whether it could work in practice

[andypat]

BOC2011 also has reduced fees for colour coded courses, as does the Scottish 6 Days. The SOA has a guideline "Entry fees for all non TD5 courses should be charged at the lower/junior rate (entrants are likely to be juniors, newcomers or injured)." for SOL's.

huh!
I paid £14 for a run on Orange(!) at a SOL last year, I was quite annoyed at the time, rightly so it seems. Poor form organising club

My wife had a similar experience - although in her case she opted not to pay the £12 as it would have been for an orange, and just walked round the (alleged) white course with our 6 year old. I dont think this rule for SOLs is widely known, but should be pointed out to organisers if anyone notices on oentries etc. I dont think its big numbers but for SOLs at least, if you organise one, you need to accept the rules and play by them.

[roadrunner]

Given that it's an SOA rule for adults on TD4- courses at SOLs to pay the junior rate, I guess it would make sense for the SOA to only ask the junior SOA levy on those SOL entries.

But it would be harder to agree at a national level. Perhaps we need something along the line of "Where an event has a discounted entry fee for Juniors, any Seniors who pay that discounted fee should be treated as juniors for the purposes of the levy calculation"? That would cover novices paying a junior fee, students, the unwaged, etc - whoever the club thought best to offer a discount to. Maybe with a codicil along the lines of "so long as such Seniors do not exceed XX% of the total competitors at the event". But something so vague would sadly be very open to abuse, and very hard for BOF to check up on, so I doubt whether it could work in practice

I was about to suggest exactly that, but you beat me to it! Yes, there's a possibility of abuse, but if the scheme is seen as fair then we ought to be able to trust clubs to abide by the rules. The majority of senior competitors these days are in the 45-55 age group, who'd be unlikely to be given discounted entry, so any serious abuse ought to be pretty obvious just by counting how many seniors had apparently been charged junior rates. (The event details ought to say who would get a discount in any case.)

[DJM]

Sunlit Forres wrote:
if (like the last SOL of 2010) there are around 400 entries, the clubs adults that are charging these adult novices junior rates are still getting stung £3.55 + £1.40 levy

Since the first 65 go free of levy, and the next 145 pay £2.15 (at adult rate), the levy is never £3.55 per head! In the example of 400 entries mentioned above, the levy is actually £2.82 when averaged out. OK, not insignifant, but 20% less than was quoted.

For smaller events where the 65 threshold has been crossed, the levy is effectively 40p per head for, say, 80 participants, 99p per head for 120 participants, and so on.

[Red Adder]

Lots of moaning about levies again but the fact is they are a known cost that can (should !) be factored in to the event's cost model by the organiser / treasurer. Its not that difficult - when faced by the unilatered threat of a £ 3 per head (juniors included) fee by the FC last Autumn within 2 hours we had worked out the implications of the fee and the new entry we would need to charge, plus a couple of costed possible negotiating positions to take back to FC - all within a couple of hours.

It also seemd that everyone seems to be finding special cases for reduced entry fees (cf student fees thread) - I'm wondering who actually will be left to play full fee - and what will that be.

Other sports don't worry about such things - when I played footie everyone paid the same match fee - when I started golf there was no pandering to the novice - pay your £ 25 green fee or b*gg*r off....

[graeme]

I don't think that the SOA should take any kind of financial hit. If clubs can get local newcomers well-and-truly hooked, the extra entry income in future will make up for the initial reduction.

Obviously attracting beginners a good thing. Obviously the local club will benefit, since beginners won't travel far. Why shouldn't the club invest in it?

[awk]

Lots of moaning about levies again but the fact is they are a known cost that can (should !) be factored in to the event's cost model by the organiser / treasurer. Its not that difficult

No it's not, and it's not the difficulty that people are generally complaining of, but the high rates.

It also seemd that everyone seems to be finding special cases for reduced entry fees (cf student fees thread) - I'm wondering who actually will be left to play full fee - and what will that be.

Which indicates that the sport is simply getting too expensive, at least at anything beyond local level.

Other sports don't worry about such things - when I played footie everyone paid the same match fee - when I started golf there was no pandering to the novice - pay your £ 25 green fee or b*gg*r off....

My experience is that other sports DO worry about such things. But you've quoted two sports that don't have any problems with take up. I don't think either are of any use as a comparison. For instance, taking your golf example, telling people to b*gg*r off is easy to do when you've got people queuing up to take part - you can pretty much charge what you like. I've no idea why they do queue up - I find golf one of the least interesting activities pursued for pleasure on this planet - but they do. And, asking around at work, match fees for football aren't comparable. I do know, though, that my ex-hockey club has lost quite a lot of players (including me) because of the high membership and match fees.

Whatever people think of the fees, there is no doubt that those at higher level events are putting people off - I've seen it happy fairly regularly. It's not the only reason, but it is one, and the levy/tax that the NGB charges is a signficant factor, and one where most people are not clear on the justifications. Thus the moaning.

[Sunlit Forres]

the levy is never £3.55 per head! In the example of 400 entries mentioned above, the levy is actually £2.82 when averaged out.

Well actually it is. Most large events already exceed the higher tax bracket with the established clientele. If we're going to attract new faces above and beyond that figure we will, by definitiion, be incurring an additional £3.55 BOF levy on every adult beginner on orange who turns up.

As Graeme points out, clubs do indeed benefit from new members (as well as 'us the SOA' and 'us the BOF') but we're also investing money in new maps, extra dibbers etc for local events (well Moravian are at least). I'm only offering my personal experience that high charges at big events is putting adult beginners from coming. Aren't these the events we want them to come to? A more helpful levy system would help us achieve this.