I thoroughly enjoyed the weekend and a big thank you to all involved. I think, as Graeme has pointed out on an earlier post, there should be a legend on the urban map even if it’s only the specific differences between the normal o map and a sprint map. I was talking to a complete novice runner before the start and it seemed obvious he had no real idea what to expect. I thought afterwards how are they expected to remember things like uncrossable walls when there’s nothing on the map to remind them.
Something like the Lincoln map might suffice
http://www.log.routegadget.co.uk/log/re ... =11&kieli=
Nopesport Urban League 2011
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Re: Nopesport Urban League 2011
graeme wrote:this comment part fuelled by guilt of thinking I went through an uncrossable wall, 24-25 on long, but I now have the OCAD file I see there is a gap (as there is in reality, and was when I mapped it).
I saw your route on routegadget and was a bit outraged initially! Went to look at the map in more details and sure enough there's a gap... Not many spotted it on looking through the splits, maybe 10?
The weekend was awesome, as usual! I though the last control on the long city race was a bit cheeky but then you should a) know where you are and b) check codes.
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
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Re: Nopesport Urban League 2011
Mrs H,
21-22 Jan 2012
26-27 Jan 2013
Graeme,
I can see the gap on the map, what about the olive green area that appears to be the other side of it, bordered by the crossable fence?
21-22 Jan 2012
26-27 Jan 2013
Graeme,
I can see the gap on the map, what about the olive green area that appears to be the other side of it, bordered by the crossable fence?
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Re: Nopesport Urban League 2011
frog wrote:Agree I'm intrigued, I presume it was something to do with control 123 being relocated.
We'll have to look at placing our controls carefully for March's scottish sprint champs to avoid angry locals.
It was between 5 and 6 on the middle course - where the obvious route was back out of 5 and in the next opening and through the wee gap between the uncrossable fence and the house. In reality this was a gate which was closed when I got there and a wee guy at the window banging on it pointing back out the way I came. The gate was shut - not sure if locked didnt get that close - just went back out and in the next gap. I see a few people did the same on routegadget, but some were I think diverted by an official later on.
You cant legislate for this - we'd some "banter" from a guy at erskine last year who did actually object (completely without foundation)to people running by his house on the public footpath! He was calmed down by Donald Petrie and got a map to put on his wall and went off happy in the end. (NB The planner, who happens to be Donald, has inexplicably avoided this particualr street for this years Erskine event!)
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Re: Nopesport Urban League 2011
we had that leg the opposite way, and I went the route that I think you are describing. I had to open a gate to do it but saw no gesticulating man.
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Re: Nopesport Urban League 2011
You probably caught him on the blind side Eddie - mind you - I present a bigger target than you. Anyhow - I'm sure the organising team have handled it well. I actually wasnt sure initially if the guy was just being helpful and telling me I'd gone the wrong way - but got the impression from his general demeanor and the banging on the window probably not.....
Definitely didnt affect my enjoyment of the race which was superb.
Definitely didnt affect my enjoyment of the race which was superb.
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Re: Nopesport Urban League 2011
Graeme has answered one of the reasons why I was finding the map so hard to read and missed some gaps that existed.
But the other comment I would make is that the map colours seemed very "vibrant" or dense. The overprint didn't stand out very well for me (and a few other people I spoke to). The contour lines looked very similar as the brown was a bit "red". Looking at last years map it had a more "flat" or "muted" look and so the overprint stood out more and the less bright colours weren't so distracting.
The density of colours made me think about urban maps and that there is an inherent problem. Normal O maps use white (or no colour) for what would normally be the majority of the map, and use colour to highlight the exceptions. This ensures that detail is more visible and not lost in the colours. The Edinburgh map has almost no area without ink on it, and most of it is a very dark colour. I don't know the answer as to which colour could be changed to white as there are too many choices. But I do know that my eyesight (aided by contacts and a magnifying glass) was not "fit for purpose" with the combination of larger symbol sizes and the colours.
But the other comment I would make is that the map colours seemed very "vibrant" or dense. The overprint didn't stand out very well for me (and a few other people I spoke to). The contour lines looked very similar as the brown was a bit "red". Looking at last years map it had a more "flat" or "muted" look and so the overprint stood out more and the less bright colours weren't so distracting.
The density of colours made me think about urban maps and that there is an inherent problem. Normal O maps use white (or no colour) for what would normally be the majority of the map, and use colour to highlight the exceptions. This ensures that detail is more visible and not lost in the colours. The Edinburgh map has almost no area without ink on it, and most of it is a very dark colour. I don't know the answer as to which colour could be changed to white as there are too many choices. But I do know that my eyesight (aided by contacts and a magnifying glass) was not "fit for purpose" with the combination of larger symbol sizes and the colours.
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Re: Nopesport Urban League 2011
One suggestion I heard being discussed yesterday was mapping at 1:4000 rather than 1:5000. Theres pros and cons in doing so, for example the St Andrews race last year was 1:4000 (very clear map) but had to be printed on two sides. Personally I found the edinburgh map trickyish to read but dont think I missed anything (other than due to my own incompetence!).
The gap graeme refers to between 24 and 25 - looking at RG noone else has admitted to finding it which might suggest something is lacking at 1:5000 in that case?
The gap graeme refers to between 24 and 25 - looking at RG noone else has admitted to finding it which might suggest something is lacking at 1:5000 in that case?
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Re: Nopesport Urban League 2011
But the other comment I would make is that the map colours seemed very "vibrant" or dense. The overprint didn't stand out very well for me (and a few other people I spoke to). The contour lines looked very similar as the brown was a bit "red". Looking at last years map it had a more "flat" or "muted" look and so the overprint stood out more and the less bright colours weren't so distracting.
The density of colours made me think about urban maps and that there is an inherent problem. Normal O maps use white (or no colour) for what would normally be the majority of the map, and use colour to highlight the exceptions. This ensures that detail is more visible and not lost in the colours. The Edinburgh map has almost no area without ink on it, and most of it is a very dark colour. I don't know the answer as to which colour could be changed to white as there are too many choices. But I do know that my eyesight (aided by contacts and a magnifying glass) was not "fit for purpose" with the combination of larger symbol sizes and the colours
Once I read this comment I pulled out some other sprint maps and do think that the overprint was the main problem on this one. To my eyes it seemed to be nearly the same colour as the contours and far too pale. Don't know what the answer is but London, York and some of the earlier Edinburgh maps are much clearer.
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Re: Nopesport Urban League 2011
The Russian planner is here.
First of all, let me say welcome if you like the cource and sorry if you do not. I think, it is no need any more to explain why it was not around the Castle and Old Town closes. Also, I'm not sure if it would be successful in any sence to put it to Queen St. Gardens and cross New Town. But there are some comments I want to give about other things.
(1). The doglegs and the same in/out ways. Sorry guys, I do not see any problems with it. Moreover, I have done so many competitions here in UK with the red line to the next control is around 170 degrees with the line to the current one, that I'm really surprised to read objections about it. The only problem with in/outs I see is that sometimes incoming people can block outcomers. But I really thought about it and tried to avoid such a places.
(2) Map readability. As Graeme mentioned, I try to follow ISSOM and all the symbols are according this standard. The only exception could be with distances between houses and impassible walls. The ISSOM says that (a) the distance between black lines should be 0.15mm and (b) the minimum gap between buildings and between buildings and other impassable features shall be 0.40 mm. The (a) I beleive is not very important, but the (b) is. Though it is very hard to follow, because You need to check every gap by hand. So, I tried to do it at least in every place which are important for the runners on this competition. I think you can hardly find such a place on the map with a gap less than 0.30mm. Though if you can, sorry about it. In general, I think that it is normal that sometimes in areas like Abbey Hill a runner need to reduce the speed to read the map (of course, the map should be readable). Particularly, I need to mention the gap between 24 and 25 on the Long. It is definitely less, than 0.40mm. But, it is not a gap really for a runner, because on the other side there is olive area! That means that I did not want You to see it and run there (and it can be seen from the map). In practice, There is a gap between a house and a wall which is about 30cm width. So I do not expect every runner to fit there. So, it is strange that Grame complains about possibility to see gaps, but was able to see that gap (and not to see olive on other side!)
(3) Colors of the map. Unfortunately, the problem with colors is very common. The point here is that every printing machine has its own colors and everybody has to test it before print the final version of maps. I had no experience with StirlingSurveys before and maybe was too lazy to control this. Sorry.
(4) Moved controls and angry men. Unfortunately, we had 2 problems with landlords during the race. One with control 123 which had to be moved and one with a yard next to 110, 111 and 130, where we have to close the yard. This is our fault. Poor excuses is that it is really hard to talk to everybody around the course before and get all the permissions, mostly because it is hard to understand what is private and what is not. We got the general permissions from police and city council and particular permissions on the several places, unfortunately not everythere needed. Particularly it is hard for me as a person who's been living here for not that long time to identify all such a places, but I was checked by the controller and non of us see problems there. If in the first place the owners probably was right to forbid to put the control there, but the angry man was just annoyed by runners passing his window by his paved path and use his gates. Up to him. Anyway, sorry about it as well. I think, we could handle both of these situations quickly and they did not influence the results significantly.
(5) About crossing uncrossable. To be honest, I'm a little bit disappointed with a number of people who climbed walls, punch over or through a fence, etc. First, I beleive that a runner entering a city orienteering must know the rules. There are many city races in UK, so almost all of the runners had such situations before. Even if you are a very fresher, it is good to know before what is allowed and what is not. Even if you do not know, you should suspect that something is going wrong if You climb a 2-3m wall. Maybe it is good to have a legend on the map. But, I can hardly imagine such a picture: a guy on a competition is staying just before a high fence, seeing a control on the other side and exploring a legend in the corner of the map -- can he jump over the fence or not. Can you? I think, it is a responsibility of team leaders to explain what you can and what you can not. Though maybe it could be good for us to remind it in the details. Once more, I do not beleive in legends on maps. Hence, I assume that the majority of the runners who jump/climp/punch over and through did really understand that they break the rules. Ok, my position here is that it is up to them. There are many ways to cheat in orienteering. But here it was not a world champ and not 1000000$ price. So I do not want to control all of them. They can cheat if they want. Because they really cheat themselves. And what is the possible price? A mug?
First of all, let me say welcome if you like the cource and sorry if you do not. I think, it is no need any more to explain why it was not around the Castle and Old Town closes. Also, I'm not sure if it would be successful in any sence to put it to Queen St. Gardens and cross New Town. But there are some comments I want to give about other things.
(1). The doglegs and the same in/out ways. Sorry guys, I do not see any problems with it. Moreover, I have done so many competitions here in UK with the red line to the next control is around 170 degrees with the line to the current one, that I'm really surprised to read objections about it. The only problem with in/outs I see is that sometimes incoming people can block outcomers. But I really thought about it and tried to avoid such a places.
(2) Map readability. As Graeme mentioned, I try to follow ISSOM and all the symbols are according this standard. The only exception could be with distances between houses and impassible walls. The ISSOM says that (a) the distance between black lines should be 0.15mm and (b) the minimum gap between buildings and between buildings and other impassable features shall be 0.40 mm. The (a) I beleive is not very important, but the (b) is. Though it is very hard to follow, because You need to check every gap by hand. So, I tried to do it at least in every place which are important for the runners on this competition. I think you can hardly find such a place on the map with a gap less than 0.30mm. Though if you can, sorry about it. In general, I think that it is normal that sometimes in areas like Abbey Hill a runner need to reduce the speed to read the map (of course, the map should be readable). Particularly, I need to mention the gap between 24 and 25 on the Long. It is definitely less, than 0.40mm. But, it is not a gap really for a runner, because on the other side there is olive area! That means that I did not want You to see it and run there (and it can be seen from the map). In practice, There is a gap between a house and a wall which is about 30cm width. So I do not expect every runner to fit there. So, it is strange that Grame complains about possibility to see gaps, but was able to see that gap (and not to see olive on other side!)
(3) Colors of the map. Unfortunately, the problem with colors is very common. The point here is that every printing machine has its own colors and everybody has to test it before print the final version of maps. I had no experience with StirlingSurveys before and maybe was too lazy to control this. Sorry.
(4) Moved controls and angry men. Unfortunately, we had 2 problems with landlords during the race. One with control 123 which had to be moved and one with a yard next to 110, 111 and 130, where we have to close the yard. This is our fault. Poor excuses is that it is really hard to talk to everybody around the course before and get all the permissions, mostly because it is hard to understand what is private and what is not. We got the general permissions from police and city council and particular permissions on the several places, unfortunately not everythere needed. Particularly it is hard for me as a person who's been living here for not that long time to identify all such a places, but I was checked by the controller and non of us see problems there. If in the first place the owners probably was right to forbid to put the control there, but the angry man was just annoyed by runners passing his window by his paved path and use his gates. Up to him. Anyway, sorry about it as well. I think, we could handle both of these situations quickly and they did not influence the results significantly.
(5) About crossing uncrossable. To be honest, I'm a little bit disappointed with a number of people who climbed walls, punch over or through a fence, etc. First, I beleive that a runner entering a city orienteering must know the rules. There are many city races in UK, so almost all of the runners had such situations before. Even if you are a very fresher, it is good to know before what is allowed and what is not. Even if you do not know, you should suspect that something is going wrong if You climb a 2-3m wall. Maybe it is good to have a legend on the map. But, I can hardly imagine such a picture: a guy on a competition is staying just before a high fence, seeing a control on the other side and exploring a legend in the corner of the map -- can he jump over the fence or not. Can you? I think, it is a responsibility of team leaders to explain what you can and what you can not. Though maybe it could be good for us to remind it in the details. Once more, I do not beleive in legends on maps. Hence, I assume that the majority of the runners who jump/climp/punch over and through did really understand that they break the rules. Ok, my position here is that it is up to them. There are many ways to cheat in orienteering. But here it was not a world champ and not 1000000$ price. So I do not want to control all of them. They can cheat if they want. Because they really cheat themselves. And what is the possible price? A mug?
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Re: Nopesport Urban League 2011
Good comments by the planner. Nice and honest. Maybe for that"gap" in future it might need some red line overprinting for clarity to ensure people can tell its a no goer. I'm sure Graeme will do the decent thing......
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Re: Nopesport Urban League 2011
hatifnatter wrote:The Russian planner is here.
Don't take to heart any of the complaints, you'll generally read more complaints on here rather than praise. I thoroughly enjoyed the long course
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
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Re: Nopesport Urban League 2011
Right, as a newbie when it comes to urban races I'd like to clarify a couple of things, although reading this thread I'm pretty sure what the answer to the first is.
a) Climbing over 'uncrossable' walls/fences results in disqualification (I've never been a climber-of-fences and I'm not going to start now, but I did notice the odd competitor doing so - a general ignorance of the rules?).
b) When you come across a control on the wrong side of an uncrossable fence, would sticking your dibbered finger/hand/arm through the fence to punch the control also result in disqualification? Whilst a) isn't really an option to me, the thought/temptation did occur to me at one control - it was quite clear that I couldn't have reached it anyway!
Does anyone have a link to the specific rules for urban races?
a) Climbing over 'uncrossable' walls/fences results in disqualification (I've never been a climber-of-fences and I'm not going to start now, but I did notice the odd competitor doing so - a general ignorance of the rules?).
b) When you come across a control on the wrong side of an uncrossable fence, would sticking your dibbered finger/hand/arm through the fence to punch the control also result in disqualification? Whilst a) isn't really an option to me, the thought/temptation did occur to me at one control - it was quite clear that I couldn't have reached it anyway!
Does anyone have a link to the specific rules for urban races?
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Re: Nopesport Urban League 2011
I can understand the point about having a legend on the map - or at least available to anyone who's fairly new to sprint-o. I think we perhaps overlooked the fact that we would have a number of 'beginners' who would be doing the street course rather than the childrens course (which was much quieter and had its own start enabling help to be provided if required) - perhaps in future a helper might be designated to help explain how orienteering works and point out things like uncrossable walls. However we generally need a large amount of control-watchers for such an event so it would depend on the numbers available to help. It's nice to have enough new/fairly new orienteers to have to consider such an option!!
As for the disqualification issue we were aware that many more have crossed uncrossable features or stuck hands through/over uncrossable features during the event than we have disqualified. This is because we only disqualified people if they were clearly identified and a location was provided. As Jegor says - those of you who knowingly crossed uncrossable features were cheating yourselves of an honest run.
Stirling printed our maps last year and we didn't have such problems. But this has been noted and will be looked into before printing next year - particularly the Holyrood map but the city map too. I think it was mentioned that Condes (which we used) has an option for altering the overprint colour to make it more purple?
As for the disqualification issue we were aware that many more have crossed uncrossable features or stuck hands through/over uncrossable features during the event than we have disqualified. This is because we only disqualified people if they were clearly identified and a location was provided. As Jegor says - those of you who knowingly crossed uncrossable features were cheating yourselves of an honest run.
Stirling printed our maps last year and we didn't have such problems. But this has been noted and will be looked into before printing next year - particularly the Holyrood map but the city map too. I think it was mentioned that Condes (which we used) has an option for altering the overprint colour to make it more purple?
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Re: Nopesport Urban League 2011
I really enjoyed the weekend - thanks to all involved.
I have to admit I also got a bit fed up with the doglegs on Saturday, but a lot of people seem to have liked them, and you're never going to please everybody. And the course did have several absolutely cracking routechoice legs
I do think the new map was significantly harder to read in places that the old one - it was really noticeable how much easier it was to work out what was going on when we had the section through Dumbiedykes on Sunday (which was on the old map). I think part of the problem was Paul's point about the colours - the Saturday map does seem to be a bit bright - but I also think that some of the extra detail that has been introduced by the remapping was excessive: for example, I would be tempted to omit all those little 18inch fences at the edge of the grass in Dumbiedykes - they clutter the map and (in my opinion) aren't really relevant for navigation.
Sunday was absolutely superb - one of the best-planned courses I have run. I am still kicking myself for my idiotic routechoice on 17 to 18 on Brown
I have to admit I also got a bit fed up with the doglegs on Saturday, but a lot of people seem to have liked them, and you're never going to please everybody. And the course did have several absolutely cracking routechoice legs
I do think the new map was significantly harder to read in places that the old one - it was really noticeable how much easier it was to work out what was going on when we had the section through Dumbiedykes on Sunday (which was on the old map). I think part of the problem was Paul's point about the colours - the Saturday map does seem to be a bit bright - but I also think that some of the extra detail that has been introduced by the remapping was excessive: for example, I would be tempted to omit all those little 18inch fences at the edge of the grass in Dumbiedykes - they clutter the map and (in my opinion) aren't really relevant for navigation.
Sunday was absolutely superb - one of the best-planned courses I have run. I am still kicking myself for my idiotic routechoice on 17 to 18 on Brown
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