After bedtime

[graeme]

Are there any rules about whether children can do night-O? I know there are only BNC champs for 16+, but is there a ban on younger children being out at night?

[King Penguin]

I hope not, but I fear ther might be - if not now then sometime in the future.

I see nothing wrong with (older) juniors and their parents taking the decision based upon the junior's experience and maturity, and would suggest shadowing (can you have shadows in the dark ?) for the first few outings.
Knowledge of the individual has to be a far better basis for a decision than an arbitrary age limit.
Many night events down our way, including score events, have suggested loops of about Yellow standard for novices. I certainly think experienced juniors should be permitted to have a go at these.

[SachaF]

At the White Rose weekend there was a young lad, pretty sure he was under 10, (but I might be a couple of years out) who took part in the Night Score event. I think there might even have been two.... (I remember a mum being concerned at the end that she couldn't find her son, but he was in the download queue already, and she was different to the mum I had chatted to at the start).

[DaveR]

I don't know if there are rules.....but I can point to the example of the British Night Champs on the Pentlands (in the snow with the army out and about and firing in the distance) where there were a few runners on W16 who were M/W14 http://esoc.org.uk/results-files/2010/bnc/w16.html, but you probably knew that anyway

[seabird]

Our regional night league has a TD2 "Introductory" course, aimed at younger Juniors and family groups.

[GrumpyOldWoman]

The old West Midland night series wasn't keen on W14's being out alone, although I'm pretty confident that my so-called shadowing added nothing to daughter's safety. Not sure if this concern was ageist, sexist or insurance related.

[awk]

The Peter Palmer requires competitors to be M/W12 and over: that includes the night legs, and the younger classes have certainly run the night legs in the past.

[Big Jon]

Deeside Night Cup has regularly had 12s and 14s out on fully technical courses. Not an issue if they are being shadowed by parent or other competent person. Some are out on their own at that age - they are competent and keen, why stop them?

[EddieH]

Age is such a poor definer of competence.

We had a 4 year old on my yellow (not white) course on Saturday. I believe his shadowing mother did not assist. She was amazed when he came across a child looking too early and tod said child that he had not gone far enough, showing him which path junction they were at.

Sasha Chepelin was doing the Deeside night league TD5* aged 10 I think. His dad shadowed him but not exactly closely.

Just 2 examples of children who can so easily be denied the challenge they require by over zealous legislation.

[SachaF]

Wow at the 4 year old! Mine doesn't hold the map the right way up yet! But, as you imply, there are huge differences within an age range, both natural and trained differences. I'm just happy he is walking the (yellow) distance.

Surely it should be the parent's decision on the competence of their child? (I know, I'm probably being a bit naive in this day and age, I have a fair few years until I need to consider things like this).

[AndyC]

Why assume that the 4 year old was walking? I've seen some youngsters getting a fair head of steam up when they're confident where they are. And don't mistake slow speed for walking -little legs!

[seabird]

Surely it should be the parent's decision on the competence of their child?

Yes and No.

Basically I think you are right it is a parent's decision - but there is a sometimes difficult balance to be struck.

Parents don't always take wise decisions - applying what they see as commonsense - which is sometimes outdated or unnecessarily risky. (I see this more professionally than in orienteering circles I hasten to add,)

A bit like the passsage in "The King's Speech", where The Duke of York inhales on his cigarette in the certain knowledge that "it relaxes the throat".

Nevertheless Organiser's can only rarely be aware of the capabilities of any particular child. If the parent is an experienced orienteer - then their judgement is most likely to be realistic.

if it is a newcomer to the sport they may be over optimistic about their capabilities and that of their child. A situation where the exercise of an offical's discretion may become appropriate - hopefully only in an advisory capacity.

[Kitch]

When I saw the title I thought this was one of those "other" threads.

It depresses me greatly that the question is asked
and the reasoned and responsible answers make it worse

The proper answer Graeme is - You decide
Don't ask - because there is always some idiot who cannot deal with the void left where no rule exists; the sort of dead sole who knows no risk, adventure nor excitement, and this idiot will make a rule that will stop everyone else getting on and having fun.

Judge for yourself
then Do
otherwise children will grow up as lap dogs afraid to ever venture out or take a risk.
They will never learn how to assess risk.
Kids love risk.

You are supposed to be sane people but you get drawn in by this crap
By which I mean the mentality that there has to be a risk assessment and a rule for everything. The trouble is that when someone comes up with a "generic" risk assessment" then it is always the most risk averse, assuming maximum incompetence and minimum common sense in its subjects.


You can only experience adventure when the outcome is uncertain.

[LostAgain]

It depresses me greatly that the question is asked
and the reasoned and responsible answers make it worse

I have to say I agree with this sentiment. If you are not careful you will get a similar rule as that in Urban Orienteering that puts limitations on juniors.

There are plenty of anally retentive individuals out there that would love to have us all in straight-jackets of HS risk assessment nonsense.

[SachaF]

Why assume that the 4 year old was walking? I've seen some youngsters getting a fair head of steam up when they're confident where they are. And don't mistake slow speed for walking -little legs!

I'm just happy he is walking the (yellow) distance.

- I'm not saying the 1st 4 year old mentioned is walking, but that mine is. Sorry if it didn't come across that way.