The issue is one of poor cartography and print quality - not of the scale of maps.
Clear maps can be drawn at any scale - from a 1:500 micro-sprint map to a 1:250 000 road map or a world atlas - so long as you get the level of abstraction appropriate to the scale. 1:15000 is the standard for orienteering as it gives the right balance between being able to plan a whole leg and see the detail near a control. A larger scale is needed for us older competitors with less sharp eyes (and shorter courses) - and this is not because of the complexity of the terrain, but ability to see the symbols.
So if the 21s needed 1:10000 maps then the vets would need 1:7500 - though these scales would be appropriate for a map for a middle distance race where the emphasis is on fine navigation rather than major route choice.
I remember there was an article in Focus following the 2007 British Champs at Pwll Du - Mainly open moor with very intricate areas of mining activity that had been mapped in too much detail to be readable; they might as well have been shown as broken ground. Examples were shown of an area mapped at a more abstract level - rather than showing every depression, pit, knoll, re-entrant and spur with overlapping contours and form lines, only the most prominent features were shown, which meant you could instantly visualise the shape of the ground.
The use of 1:15000 scale
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
World Cup 2006, France. Extremely complex terrain, some of the best in the world. After months of lobbying the IOF finally buckle and allow the use of 1:10. Lets hope that they see sense in using bigger scales when necessary...
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mharky - team nopesport
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
As a a mapper of 26 years and counting I feel I should chuck in a little comment here - Most "long" race areas can be mapped adequately at 1:15,000, but there are some areas where the terrain cannot be "generalised" and so cannot be adequately represented at 1:15,000. The type of areas that this affects are usually some sand-dune areas and man-made areas - eg complex mining terrain. If the IOF fundamentalist approach is taken these areas would not be "suitable" for orienteering, so no sand-dune areas for British Champs, JK etc, none of the complex Welsh ex-mining areas etc.
With mapping there are two approaches - scale driven and content driven. The former is the sort used by OS and road atlases. IOF has decided that international events should go down this road and BOF Map Group has slavishly followed this approach - to the extent that many high quality areas will now be unusable for major events (or like this year's JK are compromised horribly by using an unsuitable scale).
My view is that orienteering maps should be content driven - if the area needs 1:10,000 (or even 1:5,000 as in some of the amazing French areas) to adequately show the prominent features in the landscape then so be it.
What is critical to a good map is that the prominent features that a person notices are mapped and shown accurately in position relative to other near by features. If there are many prominent and close together features then a larger scale is needed to be able to use the area to best advantage.
2 little stories about maps:
Mill of Fortune (an area in Perthshire) was mapped several years ago at 1:10,000. After 2 Scottish O-Leagues and a couple of other small events (about 800 competitors in total) it was discovered that the map was actually at 1:7,500 - and NO-ONE had noticed.
World Cup final in 2000 in Portugal, sand-dune area, great races no map complaints. During a GB training camp on the area the next spring people noticed. In the race NO-ONE noticed.
Map scale and accurate north lines are not as critical as some of the "experts" would have us believe!
With mapping there are two approaches - scale driven and content driven. The former is the sort used by OS and road atlases. IOF has decided that international events should go down this road and BOF Map Group has slavishly followed this approach - to the extent that many high quality areas will now be unusable for major events (or like this year's JK are compromised horribly by using an unsuitable scale).
My view is that orienteering maps should be content driven - if the area needs 1:10,000 (or even 1:5,000 as in some of the amazing French areas) to adequately show the prominent features in the landscape then so be it.
What is critical to a good map is that the prominent features that a person notices are mapped and shown accurately in position relative to other near by features. If there are many prominent and close together features then a larger scale is needed to be able to use the area to best advantage.
2 little stories about maps:
Mill of Fortune (an area in Perthshire) was mapped several years ago at 1:10,000. After 2 Scottish O-Leagues and a couple of other small events (about 800 competitors in total) it was discovered that the map was actually at 1:7,500 - and NO-ONE had noticed.
World Cup final in 2000 in Portugal, sand-dune area, great races no map complaints. During a GB training camp on the area the next spring people noticed. In the race NO-ONE noticed.
Map scale and accurate north lines are not as critical as some of the "experts" would have us believe!
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
In a few years time we'll have insets for complex sections and the regions around controls. This will be driven by needs of urban racing then accepted for forests, grudgingly at first.
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Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
In a few years time we'll have our maps on iPad-style electronic tablets that allow you to zoom in and out and scroll around at will.
Or maybe not.
Or maybe not.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
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Scott - god
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
graeme wrote:In a few years time we'll have insets for complex sections and the regions around controls. This will be driven by needs of urban racing then accepted for forests, grudgingly at first.
World Cup Long Distance 2004 in Germany. Map extracts of 1:10 were used for the complex hill-tops of czech-like sandstone. These were printed on the edge of the map. And these sections were where the butterflies were run.
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mharky - team nopesport
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
Not found a copy of the full map, but OKO has the 1:15 and 1:10 sections in his back-catalogue...
http://folk.ntnu.no/oysteios/kart/2004/host/pages/2004-10-23%20WC-lang%20Dresden%20del-1.htm
http://folk.ntnu.no/oysteios/kart/2004/host/pages/2004-10-23%20WC-lang%20Dresden%20del-2.htm
http://folk.ntnu.no/oysteios/kart/2004/host/pages/2004-10-23%20WC-lang%20Dresden%20del-1.htm
http://folk.ntnu.no/oysteios/kart/2004/host/pages/2004-10-23%20WC-lang%20Dresden%20del-2.htm
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mharky - team nopesport
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
I can't remember whether JEC did the same thing on the same area last year, my maps are back at home.
Will? We've got proper fire now!
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Becks - god
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
graeme wrote:In a few years time we'll have insets for complex sections and the regions around controls. This will be driven by needs of urban racing then accepted for forests, grudgingly at first.
It was done for an Aire event in about 1996/97 at Crookrise - there is a small but very complex area of boulders that was enlarged. I found the standard scale just about readable and couldn't be bothered to search around for the enlarged section. No doubt these days I would find it a necessity.
For urban races, do away with descriptions and have an enlarged map section instead with a dot to show the precise location of the control, so you can see which side of the wall it is really on.
- Neil M40
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
First time I came across it was here:
http://qocweb.org/routes/cgi-bin/reitti ... 109&kieli=
US champs, about 1988. 1:15 map with the island in the Potomac at 1:7500. They also mapped the river with 1m contours to show where to wade across, claiming that 5m or 2.5m wouldn't really be suitable
Curiously, I went back the following year. The detailed bit was on both the 1:15 and the 1:7500 blow up. I never used the blow-up, and was considerably faster through the technical stuff. Reading detail is satisfying, but simplification proved quicker.
Unusually, the October Odyssey at Beanley was on a 1:15 map, which was fine even for me for that terrain and had just the right level of detail. PGplot or LIDAR contours might have helped though.
http://qocweb.org/routes/cgi-bin/reitti ... 109&kieli=
US champs, about 1988. 1:15 map with the island in the Potomac at 1:7500. They also mapped the river with 1m contours to show where to wade across, claiming that 5m or 2.5m wouldn't really be suitable
Curiously, I went back the following year. The detailed bit was on both the 1:15 and the 1:7500 blow up. I never used the blow-up, and was considerably faster through the technical stuff. Reading detail is satisfying, but simplification proved quicker.
Unusually, the October Odyssey at Beanley was on a 1:15 map, which was fine even for me for that terrain and had just the right level of detail. PGplot or LIDAR contours might have helped though.
Last edited by graeme on Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
Bigjon's really said it all, but in other words:
I understand the reason for the rule, as far too often mappers put on a whole lot of detail that runners don't need and sometimes their concientious efforts actually spoil the orienteering experience.
However some terrain including that to be used in France cannot easily be simplified legibly at 1:15000.
So if we stick rigidly to the rules what do we get?
Many English areas of typical simple orienteering are unable to use the technically interesting bits (quarries etc) because the map cannot show any detail.
Our most tecnical areas (notably vague sand dunes) cannot be used at all as they'd end up being featureless pitted ground.
I certainly hope the Irish manage to get the JK sorted because for me this year's JK dune area was a MASSIVE disappointment, far less enjoyable than Cookworthy.
I understand the reason for the rule, as far too often mappers put on a whole lot of detail that runners don't need and sometimes their concientious efforts actually spoil the orienteering experience.
However some terrain including that to be used in France cannot easily be simplified legibly at 1:15000.
So if we stick rigidly to the rules what do we get?
Many English areas of typical simple orienteering are unable to use the technically interesting bits (quarries etc) because the map cannot show any detail.
Our most tecnical areas (notably vague sand dunes) cannot be used at all as they'd end up being featureless pitted ground.
I certainly hope the Irish manage to get the JK sorted because for me this year's JK dune area was a MASSIVE disappointment, far less enjoyable than Cookworthy.
- EddieH
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
That's really interesting Eddie, cos I really really enjoyed orienteering in the well-mapped dunes, on an interesting and technical course but found Cooksworthy as expected (I'd run there twice before so it wasn't a disappointment); however, I have to confess I don't like that area or find the orienteering there very challenging - physical challenge yes but technical no. Different strokes...........
Orienteering 50% technical and 50% physical with the test of navigation being decisive - Cooksworthy failed that test and the Dunes passed it...for me anyway
And please don't get me wrong I really enjoyed all of JK in Devon and appreciate the efforts of the small band of detemined volunteers who made it happen.
Orienteering 50% technical and 50% physical with the test of navigation being decisive - Cooksworthy failed that test and the Dunes passed it...for me anyway
And please don't get me wrong I really enjoyed all of JK in Devon and appreciate the efforts of the small band of detemined volunteers who made it happen.
hop fat boy, hop!
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madmike - guru
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
From TG's website
I also want to point out (again) that I felt it's a shame to run with 1/15.000° on this type of terrain. I ran the entire course with the magnifying glass stuck on the map, and it was quite uncomfortable. Thinking or discussing about it, I've never found so far a positive argument to keep using the 1/15.000° when the terrain is as detailed as on Sunday. The IOF has been really proactive over the last years to introduce new concepts and races, but we still hang on to old-world rules.
I also want to point out (again) that I felt it's a shame to run with 1/15.000° on this type of terrain. I ran the entire course with the magnifying glass stuck on the map, and it was quite uncomfortable. Thinking or discussing about it, I've never found so far a positive argument to keep using the 1/15.000° when the terrain is as detailed as on Sunday. The IOF has been really proactive over the last years to introduce new concepts and races, but we still hang on to old-world rules.
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greywolf - addict
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
In a few years time we'll have insets for complex sections and the regions around controls. This will be driven by needs of urban racing then accepted for forests, grudgingly at first.
We did this last year up at Kielder. NATO had a new 1:10000 map for Lewisburn but I wanted to finish the race at Leaplish - a NN area mapped at larger scale. Solution was a composite map where you ran off one onto the other. Simples.
Fac et Spera. Views expressed are not necessarily those of the Scottish 6 Days Assistant Coordinator
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Freefall - addict
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
Simples at small events, but this whole argument is about the scale of map for WOC next year. And that is governed by IOF rules. You can do what you like at local events and no one really cares. But when rule changes come from the IOF then the whole sport changes in suit.
It is promising that they have allowed larger scales at World Cup events. What you don't want, as has been alluded to already but Big Jon, is crappy local mappers using bigger scales to put even more unnecessary detail on their cluttered maps.
It is promising that they have allowed larger scales at World Cup events. What you don't want, as has been alluded to already but Big Jon, is crappy local mappers using bigger scales to put even more unnecessary detail on their cluttered maps.
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mharky - team nopesport
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