rocky > i think you are right, it's a dreadful state of affairs that people are not running the premier relay class. however, i am not convinced that what you are proposing is the solution. i think the problem arises from the generally lower regard that relays are held in in the uk, compared to individual events. (liable to being squeezed, tacked onto something, having something tacked onto them to make them worth going to...). in fact i think that reversing this attitude, increasing the prestige of what are potentially top class inter-club competitions, can only be a good thing, for the clubs and for orienteering in general.
i don't think this is achieved by making the thing shorter.
longer, perhaps. sure, have it when people aren't so knackered, eg first, or after a short race, or on its own sometime if necessary. or have the people who can't hack long distance 3 days in a row run short so they can run in the relay. cos it's the relay wot matters.
of course, from this point of view, it must be a good thing that a few people are spurning the JK classic race in order to race the relays, although that is also, at the same time, a shame.
and now, to weaken my stone-hard argument, i will say that i ran 25-manna w my club in autumn, and was not very impressed as i ran through the beautiful forests past the hordes of oldsters on my course in 25 mins. longer harder more beautiful
more relay spraff
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Sorry to pour scourn on your idea ic but I don't think you can magically make the relays anything but a bonus day. I'm not saying it's not possible but just that it isn't a quick fix.
I'd say to get people (me included and I enjoy relays) to see relays as anything but a bonus day you have to start by making the ones that are bonus days (JK, British) really enjoyable. I personally think by doing what Rocky suggests this will start to happen and perhaps mean that in a few years you could hold British relays as an entirely seperate event and people will still come in their droves. Do it now I think you'll get much less teams.
I'd say to get people (me included and I enjoy relays) to see relays as anything but a bonus day you have to start by making the ones that are bonus days (JK, British) really enjoyable. I personally think by doing what Rocky suggests this will start to happen and perhaps mean that in a few years you could hold British relays as an entirely seperate event and people will still come in their droves. Do it now I think you'll get much less teams.
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FatBoy - addict
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FatBoy wrote:Sorry to pour scourn on your idea ic but I don't think you can magically make the relays anything but a bonus day. I'm not saying it's not possible but just that it isn't a quick fix.
I think this backs up exactly what ic says in terms of relays being a secondary-type of event in the UK, while if you look over Scandi-way you see the Tiomila, the Jukola etc and the numbers of people who participate in these Nordic relays. The only "vaguely" comparable thing in the UK is the Harvester, and it seems very few clubs are putting out a full-strength team, if any team at all, this year. almost all other relays are simple 3-person events tagged on to something else.
So perhaps there should be one or more big annual relay events in the UK that stand alone and can hold their own, and don't have to be tacked on to another event just to get any sort of decent competition out. loosely base them on a known successful formula, perhaps in the style of these big Nordic relays. have more than 3 people on a team, hold it on decent challenging terrain, and attempt to get the "profile" of relays changed to top class events in their own right, which they definitely can be.
opinions?
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distracted - addict
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Would be great if rockys idea worked but I think it would actually create more moaning from the oldies and perhaps juniors parents.
I've actually thought relays have been too short recently. Last years JK and British relays were too short. This years were better, but still under 50mins for the top guys. Most relays I've done in Sweden are over an hour (and considered quite short if they are less).
I'd be prepared to run shorter courses if it meant hundreds of people running them, but I don't think it would, and it would just end up with the same teams miles out in front, lapping teams.
I've actually thought relays have been too short recently. Last years JK and British relays were too short. This years were better, but still under 50mins for the top guys. Most relays I've done in Sweden are over an hour (and considered quite short if they are less).
I'd be prepared to run shorter courses if it meant hundreds of people running them, but I don't think it would, and it would just end up with the same teams miles out in front, lapping teams.
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You can't have the relays one another separate weekend. there are too many races already! If you want the best people there it has to be "tacked" on the end of a selection race weekend or JK. especially with so many elites living abroad these days.
I don't know about the mens but the womens is surely short enough for anyone to cope with already. awk said on the clubs thread that many juniors would be put off by the length/difficultly, if that's the case then make them like the jk with one or two shorter legs. But I really don't think that is true anyway, all DECENT juniors (start squad types) from m/w16 up should be able to cope with the lengths at the moment.
I'm sure they had this discussion on peelies board last year but there should be only 6ish relay classes in Mens and womens: Mini relay (m/w12s down) Juniors (m/w16s down) Open (ALL m/w18s to 40s??), Vets and Super vets and then maybe keep the ADHOC class -as it is so "British"- to allow clubs to stick random leftover runners in adhoc teams of mixed leg lengths.
Maybe make the Open a bit shorter yes but not drastically so. I notice most of the people loving this shortening idea are the types who are inclined to skip classic races and focus on the shorter races.
I would still suggest AT LEAST 40-45min winning leg times with maybe a middle (or two middle legs in mens) with 30-35min winning times.
I don't know about the mens but the womens is surely short enough for anyone to cope with already. awk said on the clubs thread that many juniors would be put off by the length/difficultly, if that's the case then make them like the jk with one or two shorter legs. But I really don't think that is true anyway, all DECENT juniors (start squad types) from m/w16 up should be able to cope with the lengths at the moment.
I'm sure they had this discussion on peelies board last year but there should be only 6ish relay classes in Mens and womens: Mini relay (m/w12s down) Juniors (m/w16s down) Open (ALL m/w18s to 40s??), Vets and Super vets and then maybe keep the ADHOC class -as it is so "British"- to allow clubs to stick random leftover runners in adhoc teams of mixed leg lengths.
Maybe make the Open a bit shorter yes but not drastically so. I notice most of the people loving this shortening idea are the types who are inclined to skip classic races and focus on the shorter races.
I would still suggest AT LEAST 40-45min winning leg times with maybe a middle (or two middle legs in mens) with 30-35min winning times.
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harry - addict
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Melons wrote:I notice most of the people loving this shortening idea are the types who are inclined to skip classic races and focus on the shorter races.
I know you said "most" but excuse me I did 2 classic races at the JK then funilly enough only just had enough in the tank to do the short. I know the issue at hand is top elites not running the open but wouldn't you prefer lots of middle of the road 21L's to join the party on the relay? I'd certainly like to run the open as I enjoy relays particuarly the first leg but at the current length it'll be consigned to those who have a competitive team. Anyone else will just feel like they want to run a short open for a warm down, or maybe just skip altogether.
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FatBoy - addict
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Yes I think 21Ls should definitely run the open. I guess the situation is different in the mens because I understand people don't like the idea of 8km after doing two 12km courses. However if they shorten the mens i can see the womens being shortened to a ridiculous length like 3 or 4km and we definitely don't want that. I can see this discussion is really about Mens relays though so I'll shut up now.
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harry - addict
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thanks to everyone who agrees with me, heres a few more unstructured points:
britain is not scandinavia, and i wish people (myself included at times) would stop trying to compare them.
scotland already has a big relay competition, usually held the day before a regional event: the 11-manna. but lets not open that kettle of fish here. perhaps if each region started their own big relay competition it could stimulate more club spirit etc etc and a uk-wide major relay could become an event, but it would take time.
back to the original idea of shortening the relays. what exactly is the argument behind keeping them the lengths the way they are, or even making them longer?
what does it take to win a relay? it should be about (a) having three great, fast, orienteers, who can handle pressure and (b) good relay tactics and skills - winning close races or being clean through gaffles are skills which are not tested in any other form of mainstream orienteering.
does shortening a relay really dilute the experience for 'elites'? perhaps one relay each year should be longer - if at boc all the classes still exist and it si only going to be 20-34s running premier then sure, make it a 3x60 race, but i don't really see the need.
as far as i saw it the main issue was the small no of teams competing meaning that the event was less of a relay, more of a 3-person-time trial or something, im not sure exactly.
britain is not scandinavia, and i wish people (myself included at times) would stop trying to compare them.
scotland already has a big relay competition, usually held the day before a regional event: the 11-manna. but lets not open that kettle of fish here. perhaps if each region started their own big relay competition it could stimulate more club spirit etc etc and a uk-wide major relay could become an event, but it would take time.
back to the original idea of shortening the relays. what exactly is the argument behind keeping them the lengths the way they are, or even making them longer?
what does it take to win a relay? it should be about (a) having three great, fast, orienteers, who can handle pressure and (b) good relay tactics and skills - winning close races or being clean through gaffles are skills which are not tested in any other form of mainstream orienteering.
does shortening a relay really dilute the experience for 'elites'? perhaps one relay each year should be longer - if at boc all the classes still exist and it si only going to be 20-34s running premier then sure, make it a 3x60 race, but i don't really see the need.
as far as i saw it the main issue was the small no of teams competing meaning that the event was less of a relay, more of a 3-person-time trial or something, im not sure exactly.
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rocky - [nope] cartel
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Yeah maybe you're right. I dunno.
It seems though that all 3/4man relays in Britain (BUSA, JK, BOC, Scottish, SHI) have turned into short races already. Excitement and participation is a big thing though so it probably isn't too bad a thing, but I don't think they should be getting any shorter.
At least one of these relays with a proper 60 minute leg would be good I think. Doing a longer leg in a relay does take certain skills that aren't being tested in any of our relays at the moment.
It seems though that all 3/4man relays in Britain (BUSA, JK, BOC, Scottish, SHI) have turned into short races already. Excitement and participation is a big thing though so it probably isn't too bad a thing, but I don't think they should be getting any shorter.
At least one of these relays with a proper 60 minute leg would be good I think. Doing a longer leg in a relay does take certain skills that aren't being tested in any of our relays at the moment.
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Rocky wrote:does shortening a relay really dilute the experience for 'elites'? perhaps one relay each year should be longer - if at boc all the classes still exist and it si only going to be 20-34s running premier then sure, make it a 3x60 race, but i don't really see the need.
Hit the nail on the head. If it's a 3 x 60 race then only those clubs lucky enough to have three top elites will be running those times. Twice in the past few years I've gone out on last leg on the Women's Premier just after the winners finish. The first time we were juniors ranging from 16 to 18 and just couldn't hack to pace for that distance but the second time we were all seniors, with one proper elite, a semi elite (if I even qualify as that these days!) and CJ who ran with us so we could run the Women's Premier. What's the point in running a last leg on a relay when the winners had already finished? If the very top elites are running a 60 minute winning time, the rest of us can expect to be out for over 90 minutes - which is ridiculous on a relay and will lead to mass starts and starting once the leaders have finished.
There are only 20 or so top ultra competitive elites in our country in each of the men's and women's classes. If they're in the same club that's a maximum of of 6 or 7 ultra competive teams. To increae the partipation therefore the lengths have to be aimed at the more ordinary runner - what's the elites problem with that? They get an ultra fast, competitive first leg with more people in the forest and will stilll win - though this may allow for a few more surprises. And what's wrong with that? ( Not saying the elites do have a problem with that, just seemed a good way to phrase it )
That's not to say that there couldn't be one longer 60 min type leg in a 3 person relay - most clubs should be able to pull someone out to do that. But 3 x 60 as a winning time is just a ridiculous idea and would most probably lead to competitive teams from about 3 clubs.
I think therefore, the answer is less classes, shorter legs all the way!
Will? We've got proper fire now!
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Becks - god
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Relays are too long.
To get a better atmosphere and to allow more people to enjoy them by not having to run long courses under pressure they need to be shorter
If relays were shorter, it would add more sprint (or short) aspect to the race, giving a better atmospehere among the spectators, and runners would be under pressure for less of the time, also giving way to in theory less mistakes ---> better competive enjoyment.
To get a better atmosphere and to allow more people to enjoy them by not having to run long courses under pressure they need to be shorter
If relays were shorter, it would add more sprint (or short) aspect to the race, giving a better atmospehere among the spectators, and runners would be under pressure for less of the time, also giving way to in theory less mistakes ---> better competive enjoyment.
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I'd also prefer the British relays to have 60min legs. BUT for that to happen the relays would have to be a stand alone event so that people aren't tired out from running for 90min the day before. If everyone is fresh then there should be a massive number of people from 17 to 50+ who are capable of getting round in under 90min. Get rid of all the other ages classes up to 50 to encourage participation in the main race (controversial I know but as long as there are other options they will be taken). I agree that going out on last leg after the winners have finish can be discouraging but if there were a large number of teams taking part the race should still be competitive that far back.
But fundamentally is the problem really that British orienteering clubs are a collection of individuals rather than motivated club runners?
But fundamentally is the problem really that British orienteering clubs are a collection of individuals rather than motivated club runners?
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Godders - blue
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Love the idea!
Would be nice to have most of teh competetive 17-50 yera olds in the same race.
If the feild is going to be bigger whta about making it so that the top TWO teams score for the relay league. That may encourage some clubs to place more "non elites" onto the courses.
Big up the relay events,
Would be nice to have most of teh competetive 17-50 yera olds in the same race.
If the feild is going to be bigger whta about making it so that the top TWO teams score for the relay league. That may encourage some clubs to place more "non elites" onto the courses.
Big up the relay events,
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pasta and cheese - orange
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Becks wrote: What's the point in running a last leg on a relay when the winners had already finished?
Why did we bother going to tiomila? What was the point of the last five JOK men running? Because it was still a good race against other teams of the same ability - you don't have to win to enjoy a relay!
Anyway, short relays wouldn't make any difference - if one team is over 50% faster they'll finish before your last leg runner goes out anyway.
...agree Becks. A 5km, 10km, 5km mens premier race at BOC (or something) would be really good.
Yes. What is very obvious is that some people want longer relays (value for money) and others want short (not get too tired). So it is equally obvious that we should have different length courses (maybe even a specially shortened last leg for teams far behind - it can get tough to find a long leg runner in the 4th team).
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Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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