I'm not a fan at all of the middle distance type races as you probably know by now, but I throw all that out for relays!
The difference is simple - mass start + gaffles. Head to head is what relays are all about and I think the longer it is the less the head to head matters as it comes down to your more classic races skills i.e. long leg route choice execution and stamina, obviously still with fine nav etc involved.
Now maybe 60min+ are what you select WOC runners need for practice but this doesn't apply to most of us (who would take 80+), so make it that long and we're not interested - tired from the previous day(s) or not.
Agree with comments about you compete with your peer group whether the winners have finished or not, but for that to be true you need the numbers on the course in the first place to make sure you're not trolling around at the back on your own.
more relay spraff
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Like we said - different length legs.
You need a longun though cos 2/3km route choices are brilliant in relays and you can't get them if the course is too short. Still would be head to head cos all the good people would be doing the long leg.
You need a longun though cos 2/3km route choices are brilliant in relays and you can't get them if the course is too short. Still would be head to head cos all the good people would be doing the long leg.
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- lilywhite
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I don't think Graeme can compare being a long way down on the Tio Mila to being a long way down on Women's Premier at JK/British due to numbers - if you're starting on last leg after the winners have finished (at JK/British) chances are there's no other teams out there for you to run against so there's no incentive to run and it just feels like one long slog for no reason.
I like the idea of having two short legs and a long one but you'll still get clubs with no-one willing to run the long leg, at which point a short-open class seems like a good idea.
I like the idea of having two short legs and a long one but you'll still get clubs with no-one willing to run the long leg, at which point a short-open class seems like a good idea.
- El
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lilywhite wrote:Like we said - different length legs.
OK but what if our club doesn't have any "good" people. We're back on the short defeating the whole purpose? I'm pretty sure my club couldn't put out a team where someone actually wanted to do the long leg. I suspect the same is true of probably half of all clubs?
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FatBoy - addict
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El wrote:I don't think Graeme can compare being a long way down on the Tio Mila to being a long way down on Women's Premier at JK/British due to numbers
I absolutely can and should. There is no intrinsic problem with going out a long way down, the problem is, as you say...
- if you're starting on last leg after the winners have finished (at JK/British) chances are there's no other teams out there for you to run against so there's no incentive to run and it just feels like one long slog for no reason.
...if you're looking to improve relays, you need to address the real problem (no other teams) not a spurious one (need to finish close to the winners). The real problem is fixable by changing the style of event, the spurious problem in insoluble.
I like the idea of having two short legs and a long one but you'll still get clubs with no-one willing to run the long leg, at which point a short-open class seems like a good idea.
I'm still mystified at this one. Why are M21L/M35/M40 types happy to run 10km on Saturday and 10km on Sunday at the JK but not 10km on Saturday and 7km on Sunday at BOC/BRC?
I've been at relays where the "long leg" problem was addressed by having
an optional changeover at the spectator control, allowing teams of 4 to compete with teams of 3 (with a sort of gentleman's agreement that
the top teams would field teams of 4, something which could be enforced in the UK through UKRL eligibility).
Graeme
PS In case you hadn't guessed, Li'l Godders is planning the Scottish Relays next year and I'm organising. So changes are likely...
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Graeme wrote:I'm still mystified at this one. Why are M21L/M35/M40 types happy to run 10km on Saturday and 10km on Sunday at the JK but not 10km on Saturday and 7km on Sunday at BOC/BRC?
Speaking for myself day 2 of JK is a survival job anyway (and day 1 come to think of it...) so it's not so much "happy" to run as obliged to. Perhaps a more pertinent question is why do I run Long in the individual and Short on the relay rather than the other way round? Comes down to 2 factors:
1) Relay is seen by most as a bonus day.
2) Nobody else in my club would want to run open on the relay.
Maybe changes discussed would solve both these and I could still run Long on the individual. I don't think you'll ever make relays more attractive than individuals to most but getting them to equal status is maybe a target.
Graeme wrote:PS In case you hadn't guessed, Li'l Godders is planning the Scottish Relays next year and I'm organising. So changes are likely...
Like I said before whether people who haven't read this topic will turn up is another question. Would I go to the Scottish Relays from Cardiff if I didn't know it was something special. Not likely. Now I might just... (all I need is a team!)
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FatBoy - addict
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awk said on the clubs thread that many juniors would be put off by the length/difficultly
Did I? Can't find where, Melons, although I think it's possibly the case:
.all DECENT juniors (start squad types) from m/w16 up should be able to cope with the lengths at the moment.
Interesting way of defining decent - simply the half dozen or so best in each age class. IMO quite a lot of "decent" orienteers don't make it to the exalted level of start squad standard. Unfortunately, there is such an emphasis of making it, that we lose a huge proportion of those who don't because the sport doesn't really cater for them (sorry, us - I never made it either!)....Like having relays that are too long and focused on only the best .
I notice most of the people loving this shortening idea are the types who are inclined to skip classic races and focus on the shorter races.
Sorry if I appear to be picking on you, but again, this isn't the case. Almost all the M and W40+ (not just the men!) runners in my club at the JK (and most of the younger adults too) wanted shorter relays. We're fed up with running relays that are often longer than people run in individual races, and based on the running speeds of the thin cream at the top. It's something that even crept into the junior classes at the British (two of the three members of the winning 14- team had to run further than they did in the individual; my son, a championship standard M12, ran the longest race of his life!).
What is middle distance orienteering for an elite runner, makes a good, sane distance for the vast majority of orienteers in this country.
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awk - god
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I suppose I was being a bit elitist but i just don't like the idea of diluting everything to an easier standard just because some people don't want to run as far. And just to make it a bigger event. Yes i know middle distance can still be technical and can obviously still be a valid test/a valid race but diluting to an easier physical standard is still making it easier.
If we are just trying to make it into an exciting spectacle for everyone to enjoy then that's fine.
On the subject of junior courses though, shortening the courses to keep more in the sport IS at the expense of the development of the best. If the 18s have been running just 18 courses all this year they will find the JWOC classic tough. Are you saying the top few should all run up to 21 in the individual and sacrifice winning their age class because the 18 is some pathetic length? (i think Cerys had about 4.5km at the JK)
If we are just trying to make it into an exciting spectacle for everyone to enjoy then that's fine.
On the subject of junior courses though, shortening the courses to keep more in the sport IS at the expense of the development of the best. If the 18s have been running just 18 courses all this year they will find the JWOC classic tough. Are you saying the top few should all run up to 21 in the individual and sacrifice winning their age class because the 18 is some pathetic length? (i think Cerys had about 4.5km at the JK)
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If the 18s have been running just 18 courses all this year they will find the JWOC classic tough. Are you saying the top few should all run up to 21 in the individual and sacrifice winning their age class because the 18 is some pathetic length? (i think Cerys had about 4.5km at the JK)
Of course they will find it tough: JWOC is aimed at M/W20s. Any M/W18 going, is going early, and that means they will need to think through what their priorities/needs are. I don't agree that M/W18 courses should be geared up to their (very elite and very specific) needs, even at the British and JK. If they want the extra challenge/preparation, then, yes, they run up. (It's one of the pluses of having either the Elite separate, and/or the Juniors separate, because then the best 18s can run in the Elite Under-21 championships, but that's re-opening another can of worms!).
I also disagree that it's at the expense of the best. There's far too much keenness in this country to move on to longer courses early, with all the negative issues that brings.
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awk - god
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awk said on the clubs thread that many juniors would be put off by the length/difficultly
Many might but some revel in it
awk wrote:.all DECENT juniors (start squad types) from m/w16 up should be able to cope with the lengths at the moment.
Interesting way of defining decent - simply the half dozen or so best in each age class. IMO quite a lot of "decent" orienteers don't make it to the exalted level of start squad standard. Unfortunately, there is such an emphasis of making it, that we lose a huge proportion of those who don't because the sport doesn't really cater for them (sorry, us - I never made it either!)....Like having relays that are too long and focused on only the best .
orienteering is a family sport, and always will be, awks right, but ther is a lot of good juniors out there who can run a long way but can't map read and a lot of good orienteers who can read maps but not run (like me ). Maybe we need easier TD events.
awk wrote:I notice most of the people loving this shortening idea are the types who are inclined to skip classic races and focus on the shorter races.
Sorry if I appear to be picking on you, but again, this isn't the case. Almost all the M and W40+ (not just the men!) runners in my club at the JK (and most of the younger adults too) wanted shorter relays. We're fed up with running relays that are often longer than people run in individual races, and based on the running speeds of the thin cream at the top. It's something that even crept into the junior classes at the British (two of the three members of the winning 14- team had to run further than they did in the individual; my son, a championship standard M12, ran the longest race of his life!).
What is middle distance orienteering for an elite runner, makes a good, sane distance for the vast majority of orienteers in this country.
true, but are we after an enjoyable run or highly competitive- the first is to run a class that fits you're needs - the second would be over in a flash and we'd all be home by 1.30 (perfect for penhale awk)
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