Shock! Horror!

[NeilC]

Re Short Courses: I enjoy competing against my peers, these may be the up and coming juniors at local club events or that group of M50s usually 10 minutes behind Clive/Quentin/Tim et al at national-level events. In my early 30s, and with a young family, I ran M21S/B for a few years and had some great rivalries. There are many people I know that have their own group of rivals on short courses. There is surely a demand for such rivalries to be facilitated at BOC with all the bells and whistles thrown in (all except the remote possibility - for most - of being a champion).

[graeme]

Not sure what point you're making Neil. BOC short courses are alive and well and available for exactly the purpose you say.
What's missing is prizes for the winners. I've run short courses at major events, usually after injury, illness or short before some other race I was peaking for. Often I won, and invariably there on the podium with me were other long/elite runners or ex-internationals. The problem with awarding prizes to short course winners is that the prizewinners themselves don't value them. If we're going to award prizes to people other than the long course winners, surely some "most improved" or "best newcomer" type award would be better?

And please please pretty please earmark a prize for 10B (really 9A)- the only course where the fastest runner gets nothing, and possibly the course where standing on a podium is most valued.

[housewife]

Couldn't agree more Graeme! I still remember crying all the way home from BOC '86 (?)at achilty as I had been excited about winning w10b only to come away from the prize giving without even being mentioned. Then winning w21s in 1999 I was pleased with my performance, but felt a prize was totally unnecessary.

[aiming off]

Have also suffered in my car on the long way back because the winner of a junior b course was not mentioned at the prize giving.

[nooomember]

Often I won, and invariably there on the podium with me were other long/elite runners or ex-internationals. The problem with awarding prizes to short course winners is that the prizewinners themselves don't value them.
And please please pretty please earmark a prize for 10B (really 9A)- the only course where the fastest runner gets nothing, and possibly the course where standing on a podium is most valued.

As a previous winner of short courses, I and others certainly DO value the prizes so you are Wrong there.

But what intensly Urks many short curse competitors, are those 'Injured' elite runners who run short instead of long because they are 'injured', and then win - thats how injured they are - so either dont run or be non-competitive.

Juniors are no different to senors - if giving prizes to M10b, or junior B classes, then be consistent and give prixes to senior Short course winners - there are often more competitors in the field than on equivalent Long courses so have more competition and as I have said - we do appreciate the prizes and being valued... unlike the 'elite' - have i mentioned they usually dont stick around for the prizegivng for lesser mortals.

[SeanC]

some seniors are no different to juniors?

[awk]

But what intensly Urks many short curse competitors, are those 'Injured' elite runners who run short instead of long because they are 'injured', and then win - thats how injured they are - so either dont run or be non-competitive.

I find this totally ridiculous. Speaking as someone who ran short courses for a decade or more, they are courses for those not able to compete on the long for whatever reason - they are meant to be inclusive in nature. That includes injured elite/long running down. Yes, that person may well be capable of winning a short course: the speeds are usually significantly slower than the front end of elite/long, and comfortably within the range of an elite/good long runner taking it steadily over a distance significantly shorter than they are used to. Rather than being "urked (sic)", I rather enjoyed having the competition, even if at the time rarely up to matching it.

Prizes on S courses have always struck me as a bit of an anomaly. On the other hand, I totally agree with Graeme on the M/W10B course.

[Tatty]

Personally I think all prizes for Junior B courses important. They need encouragement to continue in the sport. Many of the Senior/Veterans don't need the same!

[housewife]

The junior b courses are totally different from senior short courses. As a junior, certainly as a w/m10b you don't really get to say what you enter - your parent just takes a judgement as to what they think you are capable of. Winning a prize is really encouraging. A senior knows what they are getting when they are entering. Their feelings shouldn't be hurt by missing out on prizes. It's like road running. My kids do a fun run and the medal is treasured for ages, going into school with it etc. I finish the 10k and get a medal, and immediately wish they had saved the money and donated it to a charity instead.

I probably attend about 50% of the prizegivings that I get prizes in. Various reasons. Split starts make for very long days, and by the time we have both finished the kids have pretty much had enough. I get very cold after finishing running too, so tend not to hang around, unless there are people I want to chat to, or to not be there would be seen as rude. I love the sport. Getting to run in a lovely forest is the only prize i need. whether i get a buff at the end of the course is irrelevant, even if it is the british champs.

And as for elites running short, I have only done it when I have been incapable of running further. When you start banning people for being too good, where does it end? Banning people for going training? Your only allowed to run if you have a vo2 below xx?

[DeerTick]

Personally I think all prizes for Junior B courses important. They need encouragement to continue in the sport.

Spot on, Tatty. I've seen the effect of a Junior B podium prize in my club.

Many of the Senior/Veterans don't need the same!

Most, even all, of the Senior/Veterans don't need the same, perhaps (apart from nooomember of course)?
AP

[awk]

Just to make it clear: I agree that prizes for all junior B courses are important! Not clear from my last post, where I was commenting on Graeme's specific point.

[Blonde bombshell]

I have run short courses for many years because I enjoy the technical navigation, but not the long length. I compete against the same group of runners at most regional events & enjoyed the rivalry. Our highlight was always the JK & BOC and I was very please to win a trophy one year.
This enjoyment was sometimes spoilt by a 'long' course runner running down for these champs and winning easily. The following week they would be back on the long course!

Please don't assume that everyone feels the same about prizes. Some want them & some don't. I don't know what the answer is as I can see both points of view. We all pay the same entry fee so perhaps we should all be eligible for a prize on the course we enter.

[graeme]

When you start banning people for being too good, where does it end?

Yes I know this was rhetorical, but it is a question lots of other sports have a good answer to. How do you give Tony the prize he values for his good run, but not waste one on some elites easy run? How do you avoid the suspicion that whoever wins, they were more than good enough to run the long course (unless they've been chucked off the higher course, which accounts for a couple of my BOC trophies:).

The answers in other sports are some kind of rating system - e.g. once you've won a trophy, you're only eligible to win the long course.

I certainly don't object to prizes for junior B classes - kids do like prizes. But I do think 10B is unique in that they won their course and weren't beaten by younger kids who didn't get a prize. If I were organising a big event, I'd want all kids to get an award.
Oh, hang on, I am organising a big event

[sketchweppers]

I find this totally ridiculous. Speaking as someone who ran short courses for a decade or more, they are courses for those not able to compete on the long for whatever reason - they are meant to be inclusive in nature. That includes injured elite/long running down. Yes, that person may well be capable of winning a short course: the speeds are usually significantly slower than the front end of elite/long, and comfortably within the range of an elite/good long runner taking it steadily over a distance significantly shorter than they are used to. Rather than being "urked (sic)", I rather enjoyed having the competition, even if at the time rarely up to matching it.

Prizes on S courses have always struck me as a bit of an anomaly. On the other hand, I totally agree with Graeme on the M/W10B course.

All the more reason to do away with the concept of adult S courses and just replace them with a full set of colour coded courses without prizes. You will still be competing against your peers (but those in terms of ability rather than specifically in age). If you don't feel able to compete on a long course, you can then enter your usual colour coded course. No prizes necessary, and a slightly lower entry fee than the championship courses.

The junior b courses are totally different from senior short courses. As a junior, certainly as a w/m10b you don't really get to say what you enter - your parent just takes a judgement as to what they think you are capable of. Winning a prize is really encouraging.

Totally agree - there should be prizes for all junior B courses. At Moray 2013 my daughter was a) amazed that they even bothered with prizes and certificates for junior B classes , and b) thrilled that she was awarded one. Once she realised that a prize was in her grasp it really motivated her for the rest of the week. Thanks very much S6D organisers.

[roadrunner]

As an alternative suggestion: how about an award (prize, trophy, medal etc) for the fastest male and female competitors on each COURSE (irrespective of age category), plus obviously awards for the winners of all the L/A categories on that course. That would automatically mean awards for the winners of M/W10B, since these aren't shared with any other age categories (as far as I know), and it would mean that, for the other B and S courses, you would get something if you beat everyone else on that course (including people running it as an A or L course for their age category), which I feel would make it more meaningful that just being the fastest M60S or whatever.