Harvester 2011

[King Penguin]

Where is it next year?

No volunteers to run it next year yet, so could be anywhere.
The first one I went to was in Scotland - chez Tullie, in the Borders.

[buzz]

Why don't one of the student clubs try to better SHUOC's efforts? Surely EUOC can do better?

[Spookster]

Where is it next year?

No volunteers to run it next year yet, so could be anywhere.

Here's where it's been for the last 7 years. While we could challenge EUOC to better ShUOC's efforts, I reckon somewhere in the midlands is likely to get a bigger turnout.

2010 SEOA/SAX (Kent)
2009 SWOA/BOK (S.Wales)
2008 SCOA/TVOC (Chilterns)
2007 SWOA/KERNO (Penhale)
2006 SOA/RR (Teviots)
2005 YHOA/HALO (Linconshire)
2004 SEOA/MV (Sussex)

[frog]

The "midlands" is way down south to us though if you're meaning around Northamptonshire.

[graeme]

Where is it next year?

Tayside would be good, I reckon.

Like you say, its not on everyone's radar nowadays, and that's a big problem, because this type of event is so much better if there are lots of people around.
Despite the terrain, Jukola is actually easier that the Harvester because of the people around and being lost in a busy forest is much less hardcore than being lost (or even not lost) in an empty one. Far from making it easier, introducing ever more courses makes it harder in practice, at the same time as being less of a perceived challenge/achievement.
Total participant numbers is far less important than people on the same course.

Several ladies here are saying its too tough. Interestingly, Jukola and Tio both have the ladies' race in the daytime. Tio also has daytime vets and juniors.

Some of the hardcore vets/juniors/ladies run again at night. Nobody makes their teams non-competitive.

Ba-ba's telling comment was this ... BOF's harvester guidelines wouldn't allow this. Now supposing I wanted to put on a cracking mass-participation relay in my favourite format, and (like everyone else) I thought my ideas were better than the Harvester guidelines. And there was nobody doing the Harvester. Why would I offer to do the Harvester rather than just stage my own event?

[Spookster]

Ba-ba's telling comment was this ... BOF's harvester guidelines wouldn't allow this. Now supposing I wanted to put on a cracking mass-participation relay in my favourite format, and (like everyone else) I thought my ideas were better than the Harvester guidelines. And there was nobody doing the Harvester. Why would I offer to do the Harvester rather than just stage my own event?

I was about to say "they're only guidelines", but then I checked, and in fact they are a "Competition Rule" (with quite a lot of "shoulds" and not too many "shalls").

But notwithstanding that, if you have great ideas for a relay format that will increase participation in the event, then go ahead and suggest it. It's not as if we're having to chose between two different clubs both bidding to host the 2012 Harvester!

[graeme]

Not sure SOA would be so pleased for 2012, we're too focussed on the JK and new-improved Scottish champs weekend at the moment.

In fact, if I did want massive participation, I wouldn't want to do it in faraway Scotland.

[afterthought]

afterthought wrote

Forth Valley are exceptional of course! With both their men's and women's teams running well at the Harvester it looks like they could be second out of the 100 clubs in the UK this year when the scores are totalled.

not quite, very close for 2nd-4th, but the now available provisional scores are:

Code: Select all

South Yorkshire Orienteers 126
Sheffield University       112
Forth Valley Orienteers    109
Edinburgh University       108
Bristol Orienteering Klubb  93

[SeanC]

The Harvester's rules are very detailed and I guess that by the time an organiser has been found any new rules/rule changes don't have time to make it through the relevant committee?

Do they need to be this detailed? Would it be better to have a general rule ... something like:

"The Harvesters is a multi-person relay that starts in the night" and leave the rest as "suggestions"? Would that make it more attractive to organise?

[yted]

I'm not sure starting at night is the best thing - for many people it's missing a night's sleep that's the problem. What about 7 laps but starting say 3pm with the first 4 laps in daylight and with up to 3 people per allowed on each lap (this takes the pressure off those who don't like the team relying on them). The first back (who hadn't mispunched) would hand over each time to the (up to) 3 on the next lap. Then a pause for tea and cakes and such like though some could of course go home (those who don't like camping would thus be catered for). The race would then restart at nightfall (say 8pm for the first weekend in September) with teams following at the appropriate intervals and run to a conclusion around 11pm. this would be one per team and would give the intense head to head competition many of us enjoy. All to be followed by a party and bbq and then a night's sleep with some sort of event in the morning (or not depending on the availability of organisers - an organised run would suit the real keenies I'm sure).
I love it as it is but would like to get more people there. And this year's was the best yet so well done to SHUOC.

[Mrs H]

I think there is a lot of merit in yted's suggestion. Despite being old and female I can hack the dark and the distance (just about) but getting up in the middle of the night is a killer.

incidentally - As I was trying to catch a nap before the start I overheard someone say that they hadn't expected everyone to retire at 10pm and thought that the social atmosphere was the whole point and perhaps it would all kick off after midnight - I hope he wasn't disappointed

[seabird]

I wonder if one reason for few clubs than you'd like going is it not really being in the radar for Scottish clubs...I'm in the habit of just looking for Scottish events when I click on the BOF event website so hadn't spotted this was on, although

This event shouldn't be down to Individuals to identify as being on. It's really up to Club Captains to publicise the event around their club.

I'm really sad to have missed this year's Harvester - always one of my favourite events of the year. We had a full potential team for awk at a family wedding reception in, of all places, Sheffield, in a hotel suite named "Tankersley Wood" to be found on same named British relay map of earlier in the year.

Our alcohol addled brains would never have coped with the complexity of the Eccleshall map if escape had been an option.

Glad to see the Harvester went so well.

Please get your clubs considering a suitable venue for next year.

[Ravinous]

Another option to keep the racing 'together' is to start each leg in a mass start with the arrival of the first finisher on the leg. (As is done on the North Downs Way Relay.) You can have a timetable of starts if courses have been overplanned or legs are taking too long so you get a winner at roughly the right time you want in the morning.

The Peter Palmer Junior Relays have a separate set of needs but is it possible, at least every other year (or 1 in 3) to combine the PPJRs with the Harvesters to make it a bigger event? More lights in the forest is certainly more encouraging for Juniors and seeing all these adults doing night O will surely impress upon young orienteers' minds...

I think some comparison with events like Jukola should be made. I am not aware of the format of Jukola changing much over the years. Gaffling was surely introduced in the 70s and maybe, like TioMila, before then it was a point to point race. But I dont think it would have got to the point it is at now (something for everyone to do before they die - kind of like the London Marathon maybe in the UK) if they decided to have a 5 person shorter relay, and maybe introduced an even easier C relay.
We need to make the Harvester something Orienteers 'must' do. I'm not in favour of dumbing down. I dont see it as catering for beginners. I do see it as accessible to most people who have done several O races and got the hang of things O.

Having organisers and dates decided more in advance will help get the event in peoples diaries. Being more central should raise numbers but everyyear in the midlands would become dull and orienteers like variety! BOF not having a Training/Racing tour starting the Friday before took a dozen? of the more able athletes away from the race and why the EUOC snub? Maybe they were unaware of the date before booking their Croatia Tour. I also think we should avoid July as a date. There are also keen Orienteering Brits (who may well have been at the Harvesters) who were doing the German 6 Days, Austrian 6 Days, Serbian 6 days - all of which clashed. June or second half of August/September maybe better.

[NeilC]

Another option is to do as some long distance relays do and mass start the second lap runners as soon as the first lap 1 runner finishes, and so on for each lap. That way everyone has a pretty good idea of when they will be starting, lots of people to run with and less concern about leaving your next runner waiting. It would mean that the first across the line at the end would not necessarily be from the winning team, but Le Tour seems able to cope with that. The computing available nowadays could easily cope and there would be the added incentive of trying to catch your team's previous runner.

EDIT ie what Ravinous just beat me to

[Adventure Racer]

I can see the advantage with lots of mass starts - the trouble is that you're never racing head to head for position, as I was for much of my leg 3 on Sunday morning.