British Sprint Championships

[Ed]

2) It's only "flakey" because you hardly ever use the system... And if it were so flakey, would you trust the system with 13000+ runners at one event? - they do at Jukola each year and don't seem to have a problem...

I could be really unkind to emit here and mention the 10-Mila in 2001 (?) where they struggled to get any results out of the system. To be fair that was because they were trying a new system (bad idea!) and had really bad luck with the weather (probably not unexpected in Sweden in April!). I don't think SI have ever managed to have a catastrophe on that scale though...

The emit touchless system is asking for trouble mind since it removes one of the essential ideas of the emit system (no need to worry if the electronics don't work as the backup gets punched) and means that you need feedback, which as distracted said wasn't part of the original emit concept. It also means that there is a single point of failure (the brick) which only affects one competitor in the event of failure and cannot be traced or recovered. For SI, in the unlikely event that an e-card dies, there is actually a backup in the SI boxes (even if the organiser isn't meant to use it), and an SI box failure will usually affect more than one competitor and can therefore be more easily traced.

As a general rule, then as a competitor I would expect the function of any item given to me by the event organisers for use in the competition to be the responsibility of the organisers, particularly where I am not in a position to be able to reasonably check it (e.g. emit card battery, glue holding the guts of an SI card in place, ...). Certainly for internationals the rule was "always use the official e-card as if it goes wrong it's not your fault".

If I was running the British I'd therefore make sure I have a backup card, tape it into the brick so it doesn't fall out and make sure I punch properly so that the backup gets marked. If the brick dies then it's an SEP (Someone Else's Problem) so I wouldn't be worrying about it. If it was touchless punching then I'd have a pre-written complaint about a dodgy e-card in my bag just in case I don't think I'd ever use my own emit card (if I had one) for major races either.

On the other hand, if I was one of the organisers and didn't have a backup *timing* system in place at the finish then I'd be starting to sort one out...

[andy]

glue holding the guts of an SI card in place

just to say that SI Cards are a sealed unit and this is extremely unlikely to happen

The bit in the end of a series 5 card that can out isn't required to keep the chip safe, and the plastic bit that comes off the end of a series 6/9 card is purely aesthetic (and helps the card fit nicely into the hole in the stations) and below this is a sealed unit.

[Mrs H]

the chip fell out of youngest Miss H's old style red SI card (years ago) Ultraport sent it back and she was issued with a brand new replacement free of charge - I've never been able to remember the new number

[Rich R]

In fact, I think this next statement sums it up quite nicely:

"The primary reason people dislike/hate EMIT is because they don't use it often enough, and hence don't fully know how to operate the card/how the system works"

On the other hand maybe the Clubs who use the system aren't prepared/trained to use it properly - At Jukola if you turn up at the start and a card didn't work they would immediately change it. Would that happen over here? - I doubt it.

It also thought it was a poor show having controls on the floor in the sprint (these may have been knocked off); getting your card in correctly took at least three fold the normal time. I didn't get a back up punch on a number of occassions as I was simply spending too long trying to get the card in correctly (4-5seconds) but gave up on the assumption I was there that long it had to have registered.

I generally don't have a problem with using Emit and had no problems with it in the middle but in the sprint, when every second really does count and Emit is used, touch free should be the only Emit punching system used.

[Scott]

in the sprint, when every second really does count and Emit is used, touch free should be the only Emit punching system used.

Except the lack of back-up in the case of card failure means that contact-free is eminently unsuitable for use at a national championship. It would have been interesting to know what would have happened to Angry Haggis, Hocolite et al. if it had been contact-free that was in use when their cards had failed on Sunday: would they have been reinstated then? If so, on what grounds? They'd have no proof that they'd visited all the controls, but it'd hardly be their fault.

[andy]

On the other hand maybe the Clubs who use the system aren't prepared/trained to use it properly - At Jukola if you turn up at the start and a card didn't work they would immediately change it. Would that happen over here? - I doubt it.

Actually...

There was someone starting just ahead of me on Saturday at the middle who had their own card, it wouldn't work when she tried to clear it (or whatever it is you do with emit) - so they issued her with another emit brikke. So it does happen!

[Mrs H]

Well if the system is so widely used in Norway and finland - what is the experience of card failure there? There must by now be a clear pattern of how long a card's battery is likely to last and what do they do when one fails mid course - if these problems are generic then it can't be just in Britain that we're getting them.

[seabird]

The one problem I encountered with Emit at the weekend was other competitor's lack of confidence in the system. This resulted in my having to wait interminably (or so it seemed in a sprint race context) at a few controls while the person in front held their brick flat in the unit for far longer than necessary.

I long since stopped bothering with the back up - but like others neither was I offered the backup card. I find it so awkward to get the brick flat, that I'm prepared to take the risk.

[Adventure Racer]

2) It's only "flakey" because you hardly ever use the system. You'd have no choice if you were in Norway or Finland. And if it were so flakey, would you trust the system with 13000+ runners at one event? - they do at Jukola each year and don't seem to have a problem.

Does using the system a lot prevent your card from failing? Maybe it's simply an issue with the hire cards being used over here?

As I mentioned before, I actually used to defend Emit on here from those who complained because they didn't know how to use it properly. I had punching problems in the heat on Sunday, but that was all my own fault for poor punching technique. It is worth pointing out though that I have had it officially confirmed that simply inserting the end of the brikke in the control in the correct location is a valid punching technique - you don't have to lay it flat and get a backup. Personally if I had a backup card in I'd only go for the backup punch if I wasn't getting control feedback - had never realised you needed one even if you got feedback just in case the card failed later on (from a techy POV it strikes me that really is poor design - punches should be stored on some form of non-volatile memory which can be downloaded from even if the card later fails, which would be an almost 100% guarantee that if you get feedback you will be credited at download).

[Angry Haggis]

I sent Marg to collect the EMIT cards and she was told by the official that they didn't have enough back-up cards to go round

Really? I went to get one for the final (seemed like a good idea after hearing about Angry Haggis' DSQ in the qualifiers) and they had a plenty big reel of them at enquiries - though I guess that might be because nobody else was bothering. It's fairly poor form if they really didn't have enough to go around.

Just to let you know you aren't alone, Homer, I was also told this (on the Saturday) by the hiring officials.

[Tatty]

Another runner who started at the same time as me on Saturday had an Emit birick failureon the satrt line. This was immediately replaced by the officals, no questions asked.
I went to get a back up card, on Saturday , and was given one. I know fron an OD member who we stayed with that they had gone especially down to Hampshire to get extra backup cards from allan Farrington.
Perhaps we need a response from Emit UK here. Have they been asked about all the problems?

[Harley]

"The primary reason people dislike/hate EMIT is because they don't use it often enough, and hence don't fully know how to operate the card/how the system works"

That says it all really.

I sort of thought that the core skills for orienteering were how to use a compass and how to interpret the map. Other bits: whistle, control desc holder, d*bber (sorry)), should just work without geting in the way or needing any thought to operate them.

I look forward to the Emit training courses - the mind boggles at what one might be able to do with them.

[Gnitworp]

" d*bber (sorry)"

Don't be sorry, be defiantly unrepentant

[Oldman]

In fact, I think this next statement sums it up quite nicely:

"The primary reason people dislike/hate EMIT is because they don't use it often enough, and hence don't fully know how to operate the card/how the system works"

Please don't speak for others! I dislike EMIT because I can never figure out which end to place in which end of the unit and invariably have to twist my hand in a contorted manner to do so, usually annoying anyone waiting to punch behind me.

The identification of which end fits which end of the unit requires a mental image rotation that frankly (perhaps advancing years?) I cannot perform with any certainty.

[PMG]

Dear Rich R

None of the controls were put on on the floor! They all started on the posts. A design issue for OD to look at in using the kit for major events where the controls get much more battered than normal.

Sprint Planner