Event Safety, BOF Training

[Mrs H]

The location was certainly in sight of the finish and assembly, well peopled with fishermen and duck feeders - I can't remember if we had anyone marshalling it specifically - there was certainly a suspicious looking photographer there part of the time! It is rather strange to suggest that anyone would have been permitted to set off on the course using a buggy. The nature of MADO events at that stage were that I personally spoke with everyone taking part prior to their run and handed those who in my opinion needed any assistance or guidance onto someone who would help them. I don't consider slipping on wet concrete and hitting your had to be a risk peculiar to this or any other event - there is wet concrete all over the place - a lot of it in school playgrounds I expect. As for

an action plan has designed should anyone fall in to the water.

(sic) You mean like "Pull Them Out Quick". Legislating the bleedin' obvious simply breeds contempt and then any content of real value is lost.

[awk]

Earlier in the thread we had to comment that part of our general risk mitigation approach was to define course standards and apply them - if this route was designed without mitigation then I would consider that they had been broached and it could lead officials potenetially liable in event of an accident.

It's on a path...... I don't see how it necessarily exceeds white course requirements. I would suggest any 'mitigation' would depend on the depth of water.

[Red Adder]

In this case if your action plan was just "pull 'em out quick" I would be questioning where the contempt lies. Would there definitely be people near enough to pull them out - would they be able to swim / rescue someone from water - how quickly could someone trained in resuscitation be with the casualty ? Children may encounter wet concrete often but probably not in combination with stepping stones and water in a competitive situation and whilst the likelihood of an accident is still probably low the consequences could be high.

This example actually seems to superbly illustrate both the fun that the sport offers and the need for proper RAs so that fewer accidents happen, or at least the consequences of any accidents can be minimised.

[Big Jon]

Mad Mike "risk-adverse nanny-stateists"
As I have stated in the past, I believe that the real problems are insurance companies being completely risk averse and demanding more and more restrictive and detailed information. they are the ones stifling sport and outdoor activities and not the "nanny state".

[graeme]

MrsH.

Both children in the photo appear to be carrying whistles. As proven by experience these are just as useful for use as floatation devices or fighting off crocodiles as they are for attracting attention in forests. So I think you're in the clear

Graeme (Whistle-free on Cader Idris '98)

PS Last time I spoke to reckless Eddie he advised me to run up the InPin without a rope. I declined.

[EddieH]

Nice one Graeme

[ryeland of doom]

My whistle has worked well as a crocodile repellent since 1974. Good bit of kit for those wet areas.

It has also prevented dangerous encounters with the track making elephants that The Sport is supposed to attract.

[madmike]

Mad Mike "risk-adverse nanny-stateists"
As I have stated in the past, I believe that the real problems are insurance companies being completely risk averse and demanding more and more restrictive and detailed information. they are the ones stifling sport and outdoor activities and not the "nanny state".

Big Jon thanks for the clarification:

For the record, I don't disagree that the insurance company is a problem. I see the insurance company's requirements, however, as a sympton not the root cause (a 1st order issue).

Why is the insurance Company risk adverse? They are afraid of being sued and losing money(2nd order issue) and ask yourself why is that?

Personally, I perceive the root cause to be a risk adverse society being exploited by feral lawyers (3rd order issue) - That combined with well meaning but woolly thinking liberals is where I perceive the problem to be. The law of unintended consequences bites again and again!

I don't disagree that there is an issue with the insurance company but.........

[madmike]

Now back to risk assessments re fighting off crocodiles with your whistle

It is worth noting that:

Only seven of the 23 crocodilian species are considered dangerous to humans, and even fewer still are proven man-eaters. Even amongst the seven dangerous species, only individuals 3 meters in length or more represent a serious danger to humans, as smaller crocodiles are not only considered incapable of killing a person but will usually flee at the sight of people as well.

Make sure you ask the crocodiles whether they are Nile Crocodiles or Saltwater Crocodiles as that will affect the probability of the risk becoming an issue when you do your risk assessment

other tips for the risk assessment:

Just because crocodiles are not visibly present does not mean that an area is safe to orienteer. In fact, crocodiles that view humans as prey usually hide at the first sign of orienteers (i.e. a car parking or footsteps.)
A 6-meter-long crocodile can lie completely invisible in less than a foot of muddy water.
Large crocodiles have the strongest biting force of any animal alive- exceeding 5000 psi.
Most attacks by large crocodiles are over within a few seconds or less.
Most human victims succumb to drowning long before dismemberment and consumption take place.
Crocodiles become more aggressive during the mating season.
Crocodiles can move very quickly over short distances on land.
Crocodiles won't hunt their prey on land over a distance longer than a couple of feet. They, like madmike, don't have a high stamina and don't want to waste energy. If you can escape their first strike and run a couple of meters, you are usually safe.
Crocodiles are adept at learning and memorizing routines, such as the location of nearby campers or the routes of permanent orienteering courses.
In water, crocodiles tend to drag their prey under and drown them.
Crocodiles can slow their metabolism to such an extent that a tree with an orienteer hiding in its branches may be guarded continuously for several weeks, without breaks for food.
Crocodiles have strong muscles for closing their jaws and holding them shut, but weak muscles for opening them.
There is a sensitive flap in a crocodile's throat, known as the glottis, which they use for breathing. As a result, as with some other predators, forcing the arm into the throat may encourage release, although this is not certain by any means and may instead lead to the arm being severed.
Sometimes, an attacking crocodile will bite, hold on, and then rapidly spin its body to weaken its prey or tear off limbs (the "death roll").
When crocodiles see orienteers, they will duck under the water and when they reach their target, jump out and bite.
When a crocodile is near a large pile of leaves and sticks it is usually a female in mating season and very vicious: accordingly, be very careul which knolls you use as control sites.
Finally, the right wing press has given crocodiles a bad name

[Sunlit Forres]

Madmike - You have too much time on your hands. Perhaps you need a wife.

[madmike]

Madmike - You have too much time on your hands. Perhaps you need a wife.

It's being a full time student again mate.

[Scott]

a lot of stuff about waterborne reptiles

Personally, when going near water I always make sure to carry a cat.

[madmike]

bring me one for Tiomila please Scott - that's one tough putty tat

[PKJ]

Personally, I perceive the root cause to be a risk adverse society being exploited by feral lawyers (3rd order issue) - That combined with well meaning but woolly thinking liberals is where I perceive the problem to be.

You could easily change the 2nd sentence to have a gratuitous reference to Mrs Thatcher, rather than to woolly thinking liberals, which would be similarly unhelpful.

Cue some woolly thinking . I'd like to say that risk assessments and safety training are a load of nonsense and find some scapegoat to blame, but actually I don't think it's that simple, and these demands aren't going to go away. Maybe when a large percentage of orienteers were in their 20s & 30s a more relaxed attitude was fair enough. But, whether we like it or not, attitudes in our target market have changed, and the age-profile of orienteers has changed.
Though, on the whole, crocodiles are much more interesting.... must remember - wrap some strong tape round its jaws so it can't open them...

[redkite]

one more fact about Crocs.
when Wankie game reserve (Zimbabwe) was established many years ago there was no water for many miles so the keen, new warden dug a big hole to make a waterhole (now the safari lodge). A couple of days later, the warden taking a swim as no crocs were within 100 miles, was a wee bit suprised to find he was sharing the water with a big daddy of a croc.
The widely held view of the 'experts' was that it had been hibernating for many a year since the last really, really wet rainy season decades before.
So the moral to this story is
'just because you cannot see the crocs, or have never seen the crocs before, doesn't mean they are not there'

Now back to that risk assesment for hte next event, or shall i just use the one prepared earlier!!!