What grade of planner/organiser are you?

[Big Jon]

"You mean like this one.."

yes something similar - but it would be used by a few of the club rather than being open to all. I also feel the first and last 2 questions are not useful.

[AndyO]

NeilC - I was thinking about questions more related to the roles of the officials. I agree with BigJon that Q1 doesn't really tell you much that is useful, but I'll give it some further thought and send a draft over to BigJon and if it looks to be worth pursuing, we can trial it in the Club next year.

I'm not convinced about a grading system for planners and organisers, and that is partly due to not wanting to turn off volunteers from taking on these roles. At the same time it would be good to have some kind of assessment to help identify those who might be seen as able to take on a major event, and also to offer some constructive support to those with less experience. Just as important of course considering Mharky's point it would identify those who did not meet the proper standards, but do it by pointing out the concerns which should allow them to address failings. Consistent poor marks for an individual should lead to fewer invitations to officiate at bigger events.

Another point for discussion is the accessibility of the information provided. If the marking with the form results in a grading for planners and organisers (and a separate debate is how many "good" scores does it take to get "promoted" to a higher grade, or conversely "demoted" to a lower grade, what is the relative weighting of different categories of event) should this simply be held by BOF/Associations for major events, and Clubs for their events?

What did I say about beaurocracy?

[EddieH]

There are some inspired planners, the vast majority are perfectly satisfactory, and a few that don't seem to understand what makes a good course. Qualifications tend to stultify the inspirational types.

With regard to organisers I'm not sure that inspiration is relevant other than the ability to inspire others to help. I suspect this is more a matter of motivation. I very occasionally organise for no other reason than to get the club through a sticky patch - when I do I do the minimum I feel necessary for a satisfactory event - a very different attitude to planning. If I have to qualify for this I'll simply stop doing it at all.

[andypat]

Mystery shopper anyone?

[AndyO]

Eddie, I hope I haven't implied that we should have qualifications for planners or organisers, what I have put forward is a suggestion for grading these officials (the subject of the topic) and if there are any problems, areas that they might work on to improve.

What would be a good outcome would be that we can recognise those inspired planners and motivational organisers by some assessment that if not entirely objective, might at least be based on the subjective views of a number of people.

[Sunlit Forres]

If we're going to start assessing the standard of course planning, this should be limited to major events planned by experienced people (let's say level A and B).

Planning an event is a daunting enough job for a novice planner without having the worry of the great and the good of orienteering casting judgement on them afterwards. The thought of being assessed adds unwanted pressure.

I remember the first colour coded event that I planned. I recall how nervous I was as the runners headed out in to the forest, and what a relief it was when people actually started arriving at the finish! To me, it was a great achievement getting everything in the right place, and I would have found any criticism thoroughly demoralising; it would have totally shattered the euphoria of 'getting it right'.

If there is going to be any assessment done of anything but big events, the course planner should be left out of it. Assess the controller by all means, because if there was anything wrong with the courses it would have been he/she who were not doing their jobs.

[70plus]

"... a good outcome would be that we can recognise those inspired planners ..."

And then what? Get them to plan more often? Ask them to run courses to disseminate their inspiration? Move them from Grade-2 to Grade-1?

I think we may be doing little more than trying to measure the essentially unmeasurable, perhaps with more unintended consequences.

[roadrunner]

Planning an event is a daunting enough job for a novice planner without having the worry of the great and the good of orienteering casting judgement on them afterwards.

Why the implicit assumption that feedback will always be finding fault? Feedback praising the planner on good courses, or the organiser for a well-run event - and there's some of that even on Nopesport - is quite motivating. I know that when I planned an event some years ago I would have liked to have known what people thought of my courses. Is the problem perhaps that, because there's no such thing as the right Blue course (or whatever), people will always say that something could have been improved (though not always the same thing, as EddieH mentioned before)? Perhaps competitors need to learn to give balanced feedback, such as generally happens on Runners World for races; if something's wrong (not enough loos, car parking chaos, ...) it will certainly be mentioned, but good organisation and marshalling gets praised at least as often.

[IanD]

Many many years ago I planned a W43 (that tells you how long ago) course which did not match the typical course shape expected. 2 of the 14? legs were about 3/4 of the length of the whole course.
It was interesting that all of the 14 W43's on the course at the event spoke to me - 7 to praise the long legs, and 7 to complain about all that distance without a control. What am I to judge from that

I conclude that half of the W43's liked a proper classic-style course and the other half would have preferred middle-distance style. (Assuming of course that your long legs had decent route-choice and weren't inevitably long boring path runs).

Back in those days, I think you should have been planning classic (aka long) as middle-distance and sprint had yet to be invented.

[IanD]

Perhaps competitors need to learn to give balanced feedback, such as generally happens on Runners World for races.

I think it would be helpful if experienced orienteers always tried to provide feedback on courses. But I would make two provisos:

1) always mention at least as many things that you liked as those you didn't.

2) if you're upset or angry about something as you finish, keep your trap shut until you've calmed down.

(And yes, I don't always succeed in following my own advice )

[alanbrett]

We've had a good mix of feedback - whether positive, negative or constructive in our post event online feedback forms at CHIG (used them at all events since Nov 2009).

It has proven very useful in terms of each of planners, organisers and the club committee considering the feedback and indeed has prompted us to update our event documentation in light of the feedback offered.

If you ask you get more feedback than if you don't and it would prove a worthwhile exercise for many clubs I suspect.

[graeme]

2) if you're upset or angry about something as you finish, keep your trap shut until you've calmed down.

I always found the corollary to this more useful for organisers- if someone is angry and upset about something when they finish, ignore them and ask about it later once they've calmed down.

[Adrian]

It's interesting and surprising that some orienteers don't know that there are grades of controller, planner and organiser, based on what courses you have done. There's an event officials list in the West Midlands Association Handbook, and I assumed every association would have something similar. These days more L3 events are being planned by people with no training and that can't be good for the sport. I've done a grade 3 planners course and a grade 3 organisers course (twice) and I'm off to Nottingham in the morning to do my grade 3 controllers course. http://www.emoa.org.uk/

As I've said before, controllers aren't there to teach planners or organisers how to fulfil their role properly, so I encourage regular orienteers to do these courses and gain confidence in doing their job well.

[Knee Deep Mud!]

Planning an event is a daunting enough job for a novice planner without having the worry of the great and the good of orienteering casting judgement on them afterwards.

If there is going to be any assessment done of anything but big events, the course planner should be left out of it.

As a planner I would totally disagree with these statements. Yes, having the great and good casting judgement can be a scary process, but it can also be very rewarding, and is certainly enlightening. Positive feedback gives you more of a high than no feedback at all. Burying your head in the sand and refusing to accept any form of feedback or judgement is simply guaranteeing that you will never learn anything, and never improve, and never stop making the same mistakes again.
Actually one of the hardest things I've found as a planner is trying to solicit any form of feedback (constructive or otherwise) on my plannning after an event. The advent of Routegadget has improved things somewhat, at least giving you some feedback as to whether you got the route choice challenges right or wrong. However, it still needs more people to use it, and use it fully. The last event I planned, only about 10% of competitors marked up their routes, and only about 10% of these actually made any comments (and only two of these were actually about the event (negative on an organisational aspect which we know we didn't get right, and a positive one about the course)).
From my experience, the negative feedback I've received, has in general just confirmed my own niggling doubts I've had about things as I was planning. The learning points I've taken away from this 1) If I've got a niggling doubt about something, then it probably is an issue and should be replanned/remapped, or at least discussed with the controller for a sanity check. 2) Just because the controller says change something doesn't make them right (you are the planner and the course is your responsibility to get right. Don't blindly follow someone else's instructions. The controller is there to check and advise, not to plan). 3) I now hang all my own controls to ensure that the actual course is as I planned it, and if a control is misplaced, then the buck stops with me. 4) Be triply careful about 'last minute' changes, and avoid them if at all possible.
If no-one had fed back on these issues, I would probably have gone away thinking everything had gone perfectly, and wouldn't have learnt anything, and wouldn't have avoided the same mistakes next time.
There is of course the separate issue of the great and good (i.e. all of us) giving said feedback in a constructive manner (constructive criticism, rather than criticism, or general verbal abuse). Smiling faces at the finish of an enjoyable course, and the occasional thankyou to the event officials go a long way.

[70plus]

KDM, if you want feedback as planner, you should lurk incognito around the Finish or the Assembly area at your events (I'm sure you do this). You should then get genuine feedback, rather than remarks which may be chosen to avoid excessive offence - or congratulation perhaps