JK 2009 Feedback?

[distracted]

Re the relay map issue problem.
Apart from the Harvester I've never personally encountered the systems where runners have responsibility for selecting their own maps. I can see it as potentially problematic, in terms of other teams being affected by their maps being missing,if taken in error - particularly for younger juniors who might be better off with being handed their maps in advance.

But then as you've aptly demonstrated, every system can have problems with people taking/being allocated the wrong map.

With the 'Scandi' system, you take those who would have been helping in the map-issue tent and use them as 'spotters' by the changeover as a check in addition to that of the competitors. If a team does take the wrong map then it's pretty easy to have a list of gaffles and a supply of spare maps so that the other team isn't disadvantaged, and the team gets dq'd because they've run the wrong course - so it's in their interest to get it right!

Plus, there are further advantages over the map-issue system - it's already been noted with regard to the problems encountered at map issue this past weekend, and also removes the need to open the map (and potentially rip it in two...) and the opportunity for runners to cheat by taking a sneaky look at the map.

[Adventure Racer]

Most sports have prizes for all competitions. Any sort of running race no matter how small will have prizes at least for the first 3.

As indeed you do in orienteering. You don't get first 3 in every little age group sub-category in running.

I do think more prizes or certificates would encourage juniors though

I don't think anybody is arguing for less prizes for juniors, or even against more prizes.

If you do a running race then shorter races have prizes just like longer races.

Yep, same level of prizes at the middle and sprint champs as the long champs. Meanwhile they don't normally seem to give the same level of prizes for the 1 mile fun run as for the 10k race in running.

I don't understand the orienteering feeling that longest is best. Fair enough if you're an elite athlete who needs to be up to elite standards in other countries, but I don't see why for most of us hobby orienteers the short courses can't be seen as equally valued.

IMO the issue is with the nomenclature. At anything other than a middle or sprint event, the long course could be called the standard course, though I'd imagine that short course runners probably prefer the way it is.

Nobody is suggesting the short course isn't a valid competition. However most of the short course runners I know (quite a lot of those I know well in our club often run short), would be happy to admit that it isn't the premier competition for their age group. Worry about competing against your peers in the short class, not about getting a prize which many of the long course runners could have won instead if they chose to do so.

See also viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9426 for comments on this issue!

[SIman]

The problem seems to be entirely due to using rolled, rather than flat, maps handed out by officials. Maps folded and sealed flat are much easier to stack in numerical order, and hence much easier for the officials to identify quickly.

I believe that there is a concern that with laser printed maps, folding them may cause problems with the toner coming off along the folds. I don't know if it is a real problem with most of the papers being used today.

[Adventure Racer]

Whatever was wrong with paper bags?

[awk]

Re the relay map issue problem.
Apart from the Harvester I've never personally encountered the systems where runners have responsibility for selecting their own maps. I can see it as potentially problematic,

Well, it's been tried and tested successfully at far bigger, more organisationally intensive events than we've ever seen in Britain, so whilst there may be the odd small problem, I see no reason not to adopt it - we Brits always seem to think we know better (but we usually don't!). It certainly can't be any more problematic than map issue which always causes problems (you and I will remember a couple of very irate W40s at last year's British......!)

[mharky]

they don't normally seem to give the same level of prizes for the 1 mile fun run as for the 10k race in running

In Beijin i'm pretty sure Rashid Ramzi got the same gold medal for the 1500m as Kenenisa Bekele did for the 10,00m...

You've compared a fun-run to a race, not a mile to 10km.

[seabird]

(you and I will remember a couple of very irate W40s at last year's British......!)

The full horror of it comes flooding back.

Bring on the Scandi system

[mharky]

Well, it's been tried and tested successfully at far bigger, more organisationally intensive events than we've ever seen in Britain, so whilst there may be the odd small problem, I see no reason not to adopt it - we Brits always seem to think we know better (but we usually don't!)

Exactly! If it's a good idea then they are doing it in Scandinavia, they are at least 10 years ahead of us. Coloured control descriptions? Choose your map sale? Er, no. Map boards, yes.

[frog]

Sadly I think Adventure racers comparison of fun run to race rather than 1k race to 10k race is the major factor in the UK orienteering bias against shorter o races. Unless we call them "sprints" then it becomes OK and macho to run the shorter distance. Otherwise longer is perceived as better and those choosing shorter races are perceived as doing the orienteering equivalent of a fun run. Sad, as I think that's where we lose alot of people when the distances become huge when you hit 21, unless you want to be considered an also ran fun runner..

[EddieH]

Frog, there is a considerable body of opionion that would like the JK to become the total result of a sprint, a middle and a long race. If this would happen with long being truly a long race I'd vote for it. However I can't see it working at all as the likes of you would not want to do a long race.

But I suppose you could have a separate set of prizes for those that want to do sprint, middle and short

As it is now the JK is what it is - there are awards and titles for the sprint which anyone can do and get their prizes if they can. There are awards and titles for the combined time of 2 long races (non elite). Thats what the competition is. Any club is free to put on ANY format event they wish and award any prizes/ trophies as they see fit. If the publc buy in to the qualty and seriousness of the event you will get a great competition whatever the winning times.

I suggest you go to your club committee and tell them you'd like to put on events with the type of course you want. If you are right about the demand they'll catch on.

[Oldman]

Sad, as I think that's where we lose alot of people when the distances become huge when you hit 21, unless you want to be considered an also ran fun runner..

I know this doesn't apply to the JK and National Events, but my understanding of the new regional events is that there will be a set of colour coded courses, each open to everyone, enabling eg M21s who wish to run say 4K or 6K or 8K to do so. Are you aware of that, frog?

[Oldman]

Frog, there is a considerable body of opionion that would like the JK to become the total result of a sprint, a middle and a long race.

I also contend there is a considerable body of opinion that wants no change from what we have!

[mharky]

I think it would be fair enough to have the elite classes as a combination of Sprint, Middle and Long, but I'm not sure what the general public would want. Saturday is still a classic race for them. Many people have to travel long distances and so forcing them to include the sprint could be a bit unfair. I think it's good as it is.

[sketchweppers]

I thoroughly enjoyed this, my first JK. I was worried by the size of the event, but I have never seen such a pleasant crowd of people before. The hour long wait in the bus queue on Monday afternoon showed me what a polite bunch of people orienteers must be!

I thought that the punching start for the second parent (if you asked for parents' split starts) was a really nice idea. I was a bit concerned about my 7km walk on Day 3 from car park to assembly, to the junior start with my kids, and then back to my start would be a right pain. However, it was very pleasant (yes, the weather helped), with fantastic views and no worries about getting to my start in time. Thanks for that little touch. Day 3 was also my favourite day of the event too.

Personally I found the 1:15,000 map on Day 2 really difficult - and am now looking forward to next year, when I become old enough to get the bigger scale map!

My M12 son had a bit of a problem at the Sprint start - he picked up the M10 control descriptions (he says from the M12 pile) and, this being one of the first times he has ever had to collect control descriptions in the start lanes, fumbled with folding and putting them into the holder so that he couldn't read the label anyway! Any chance of a bit of help for youngsters with this? I saw him in tears on the course, worked out what he had done wrong and managed to persuade him to continue, but he was really upset. I doubt I'll be able to get him to run a sprint O again as he wasn't particularly keen and after a bad experience won't want to try again - shame, as I thought it was great.

We are now looking forward to next year's JK in the South West.
Many thanks for great weekend.

[madmike]

and am now looking forward to next year, when I become old enough to get the bigger scale map!

you and me both - roll-on 1 Jan 10