Where have all the young uns gone

[SeanC]

The series of test matches wouldnt need to be confined to a year. Using the cricket analogy, you could play one or two clubs one year, and different clubs in subsequent years until its time to start again.

[HOCOLITE]

How do you make it possible for either club to win. If you look at regional results for CSC it is fairly predictable who will go through to the final. This is because the results are determined by who is the best on the day-Obviously necessary to get the best clubs to the final. This discourages rank and file participation, as they don't count. We also have a league, and the scorers in this do differ to CSC as the big guns don't see this as important competition, however it is not really conducive to club spirit. Also there are very few M/W 10/12's that take part. The events are not 'high profile'/'junior friendly'. I know all our juniors love the YBT and PP, but how can we introduce the youngsters to this wonderful aspect of O. If the test match idea or club challenge is a goer how does it reward the new members and rank or file who loyally support the club but don't aspire to national representation?

[SeanC]

I'm hoping the clever people reading this will come up with the answers to these more difficult questions

Some random thoughts though:

- A lot depends on who you play. Big clubs could play big clubs, and smaller clubs could play smaller clubs. Perhaps you could have 2 divisions in some regions. In the SE clubs like SO and SLOW in division one. In division 2 you could have teams like DFOK, HAVOC, CROC with promotion and relegation.

- Maybe the bigger clubs could have A and B teams with the B teams in division 2,

- or the bigger clubs can be split into bits for the purposes of the competition (SO west, SO east, SO north) so we only need one league.

- you could go down the route of a handicap system where each competitor declares their standard before the event and the performance is measured relative to the standard (this is what the Frolics series does).

In the end it might not matter about whether your team wins or an individual doesn't count. Things are different in different clubs of course, but we have the biggest turnouts at compass sport cup events, even though we have no chance of winning and most dont count. This I think is because it is an excuse for a sociable day out. Socialising with the competing team, even if they've just trounced you for the Xth year, is something that's missing from individual focused orienteering events.

[elspeth]

A test match thing is a great idea! Probably the Oxford-Cambridge varsity match is the closest thing to this that we have in orienteering at the moment, and it is always a great occasion We also have much better attendance to that as it gives us something to aim for. Its really good for club moral and inter-club banter

There would definitely be some issues about numbers of counters etc between clubs of different size. Perhaps it would be possible to come up with a number of counters required from each club on each course (dependant on membership numbers?)? Provided the clubs are approximately equal in size, this would give both clubs the incentive to actually get the members out there for the event, as none attendance could mean not enough counters and therefore your club would be far more likely to lose. A test match between two smaller clubs would require less counters. Perhaps it could provide an incentive to try and increase club membership too.

[HOCOLITE]

Back to the original. MV National event JW1 and JW2 just 1 commpetitor JM1 and JM2 a few more. But then look at the M/W 75 entry. To correspond with the JM/JW 1/2 there is a low entry on M35. Is the cost too high for families? Is there a fear of danger for the youngsters?

[SeanC]

OK, I went off topic a bit

Test matches:
votes for: 1
not convinced: 2
no comment: the remaining 9997 orienteers in the UK

possible conclusions
a) 9997 think its a daft idea and dont want to waste time commenting
b) 9997 think its a great idea, but dont want to say anything positive in case they are volunteered into regional test match co-ordinator
c) 9990 dont read nopesport

If you think its a good idea maybe send me a PM and I might push the idea a bit further in the future.

Back to the topic, I dont think cost is the significant factor, but I really must do some work today.

[Mrs H]

Oh I think it's a good idea Sean as long as it's kept local (and that doesn't mean regional - we have clubs in 2 other regions closer than clubs in our own)

[Gnitworp]

Here's another idea.

How about age class tournaments, like the CSC, but exclusively for say M55+'s, M40+'s and M21+s without further age-related subdivision within each competition. There would be similar divisions for juniors and women. However, women would be eligible for the men's and junior men's tournaments if old or young enough, or, better still, call them Open, i.e., O21+, O40+, O55+ etc. The various competitions could be run simultaneously or partly so.

Some clubs have specific strengths only in certain categories, and are therefore weak in the CSC, but would do well in the subdivided competitions.

[Vidalos]

Think the whole idea of a Mens and Womens Open without having 21 attached to it is a sensible way to go. Then have restrictions for junior and veteran categories. Why is it that we have to attach 21 to what is effectively and open class?

However, back to the original subject look how many juniors are the offspring of M/W 35/40/45 (I used to say 35/40 but we've nearly all moved on now)If the parent don't go the kids don't. So is it the parents are not prepared to travel, or have conflicting activities such as football. This weekend I have a bit of both

[Gnitworp]

Why is it that we have to attach 21 to what is effectively and open class?

Totally agree; and why not drop 'Men' as well? (i.e., Open and Women Open; an accurate description of eligibility)

[NeilC]

A test match thing is a great idea! Probably the Oxford-Cambridge varsity match is the closest thing to this that we have in orienteering at the moment

...that you know about. CHIG and HAVOC for example have been having inter-club matches for years.

[PKJ]

My previous post could be interpreted as saying that the particular event wasn't of Regional Event standard. I didn't intend that in any way (and RouteGadget is brilliant).

And, in favour of the current Regional Events, you could say
- they're well understood by the people who travel & pay their entry fees
- only a relatively small number of people towards the top end run 'out of class'
- all that's needed is some tinkering with the courses & lengths, eg: consider M/W21 as Open & Women's Open (as suggested), change the time-ratios to make courses 3,4,5 (say) longer relative to course 1

Shamelessly going further off-topic; on inter-club competitions, orienteering doesn't really have the equivalent of competing at 2nd, 3rd, 4th team level. Could you have a competition where every club member who finishes counts (as an extension of the current CS Cup system)? Eg: top 20 are the 1st team, next 20 are the 2nd team etc.

[NeilC]

orienteering doesn't really have the equivalent of competing at 2nd, 3rd, 4th team level. Could you have a competition where every club member who finishes counts (as an extension of the current CS Cup system)? Eg: top 20 are the 1st team, next 20 are the 2nd team etc.

You mean like the Yvette Baker trophy?

[awk]

Interesting this idea of promotion/demotion etc.: something I proposed to the CSC group some time ago, but was never taken on board. In summary

Merge CSCup and Trophy.
Divide England into 3 areas (e.g. North, Midlands, South, but don't have to be that), plus Wales and Scotland.
In each area, clubs are sorted (depending on previous results) into divisions of, say, 4 clubs.
CSC 'qualifier' is a match between clubs in each division. Each match is hosted by one of the 'middle' teams from the previous year.
Winners of matches then go on to national final for that division (so North Div 1 winner plays winners from South Div 1, Midlands Div 1 etc.). They also get promoted to the next division up in their area for the next season.
Bottom team in each division get relegated.

Welsh and Scots divisions could slot in where appropriate (so Welsh Div 1 winners might for instance play at National Div 2 in their first year). If they win at that level, their successors the following year have to compete at the next level up the following year; if they finish last, they move down a level.

This way, clubs don't play other clubs depending on size, they play against their peers in terms of strength: I suspect there would be some seriously close matches. It also means that clubs get recognised at their level (Southern Div 3 champions, National Div 2 champions etc.), with much better opportunities for publicity with something that non-orienteers can understand. All in all, I think the competition would be much more meaningful.

Because clubs in lower divisions are likely to be smaller and/or struggle to get teams out, you could if necessary have different participation rules for lower divisions compared to higher divisions.

[SeanC]

It sounds like a more interesting competition awk, especially for small/medium sized clubs. I guess this would be a more difficult competition to organise though?

But taking the idea about winners and publicity, within the existing structure it must be possible to give a media friendly sounding title to the winners of each heat, eg South East club champions or something like that. This could then be used as copy for local papers and free publicity.