The Demise of Elite Junior Orienteering Competitions

[King Penguin]

... but losing a few seconds to cross a road safely is likely to have far less impact on the results of a 40 - 60 minute full-length urban event than on the results of a 12-minute sprint. Also, less pracical to build a timed-out road crossing into a sprint-distance event.

[RichT]

Well I agree with the FCC sentiments . . . and as I volunteered to plan the Lakes middle race 10 days ago a good job I've read this thread. .

I'll make sure to add it to the next Lakeland Club meeting agenda so that we try to make the "Final" weekend match your aspirations.

[Dave]

... but losing a few seconds to cross a road safely is likely to have far less impact on the results of a 40 - 60 minute full-length urban event than on the results of a 12-minute sprint. Also, less pracical to build a timed-out road crossing into a sprint-distance event.

Well I don't think many elites will give a **** about the result at a local event in the UK, it's all about practicing racing in similar situations to what competitions will be. And there aren't any internationals that involve 60 minutes of asphalt running, with 1km+ slogs between controls.

[graeme]

Are there any Nopesporters out there on the fixtures or competitions committee prepared to find out if it's not too late to get this implemented for next year?

No, because those committees are abolished, and the replacements aren't reconvened.
But really, what do you want from BOF? All that's needed is some rules, a spreadsheet and a webpage and some effort to get prizes.

[Lard]

I don't believe the Final should be a closed shop and in the past the difficulty of it being shortly after the last qualifying race and getting invites to the top 15 was problematical to say the least.

It would be best to say that everyone's welcome in the final but your placing in the qualifying races determine your seeded start position for the middle, maybe even for the Long (to save on that piece of last-minute admin too) ?

I love the buzz coming from this! By the way I used to offer £100 for any junior getting a top 6 in the UK Cup. But now I'm offering £100 for any 18 getting in the top 3 overall in the new league - if it'll work. If not tell me how you want to spend my dosh Mharky!

[NeilC]

Any evidence for this?

Apologies for straying off topic. Evidence is only personal experience - I know that I push harder in sprints than I do in an urban race, get into more oxygen debt and am certainly less in control. I'm no elite though and can quite believe that the likes of Scott run at a similar threshold in both disciplines. There might be others more like me though running an elite sprint, so as an official I would be more concerned about 30mph traffic in the shorter discipline. Quite possibly personal and irrational and since I don't write the rules (any more) also irrelevant.

[Mrs H]

But really, what do you want from BOF?

We need to know that some guaranteed JWOC places are available to the winners.

I'm not sure about doing away with qualifying for the final - surely that means that the top juniors (or anyone else for that matter) don't have to bother to turn up to the other rounds. It's lessens the importance of the series as a whole if it's just the final which matters.

Mharky mentioned the excitement of finding out who was in the final at the JK - I can remember that as being a cause for some celebration amongst the juniors.

[mharky]

I tried to find my GPS routes, but I don't often race with GPS, could only find the Scottish Sprint Champs, nothing from Edinburgh or London.

Although paces may be similar, I guess in IOF sprint one tends to be a bit more rushed, whereas urban seems to be a calmer affair in your own head, or so it seems to me, so you're more likely to notice any hazards in a urban, but in a sprint your so concentrated on finding the next turning that you don't notice so much.

In general though, it would be nicer if there were more middle and sprint events in the UK, they are JWOC and WOC disciplines, so should be run reasonably regularly. It also allows clubs to use small areas that wouldn't otherwise fit longer courses.

But, back to the point...

We are going to run with this. I don't want to give away too many details just yet, but it will be a series with a final. It will be very similar to the FCC of old. We will have very good prizes (thanks to some very generous people!). The feedback from current and former juniors, parents and coaches is all very welcome and has been taken on board. Watch this space! (Probably a different, more friendly, thread!)

[mharky]

And yes, if BOF were to use the races for selection then it would make a massive difference. They don't need to help organise, they don't need to help fund, the don't need to help advertise. But to have the events as BOF sanctioned selection races would make them the real deal.

As we have seen time and time again, our best athletes will only come out of the training cave for selection races.

MN

[keever]

I'm not sure about doing away with qualifying for the final - surely that means that the top juniors (or anyone else for that matter) don't have to bother to turn up to the other rounds. It's lessens the importance of the series as a whole if it's just the final which matters.

Prize money for the league (including final) winner(s) and JWOC places and prize money for the Final Winner(s)?

[Kitch]

you make qualification for the final dependant on completeing a number of the previous rounds

[Duncan]

This thread caught my eye, not least because I sit on the National Fixtues Group (now "Event Scheduling Group"), I maintain the UK Cup scoring database (till the end of this year at least, unless UK Cup carries on next year, rather than becoming part of National O Series...), and I'm a JWOC selector adviser...

Anyway, it all sounds like a great idea. But I think getting the FCC Final to be a selection race is v. important. I don't recall the precise details, but I think in 2010 there were big issues when the selectors decided not to use the proposed FCC Final as a selection race. This was Gareth Candy's time, and there were doubtless quite sensible reasons (again I forget what, but probably either the timing was too close to JWOC or something like that). I think the FCC Final was scrapped that year, and it became a regular series of races, half of which were BOCs and JK that people go to anyway. Without the FCC Final as a selection race, the whole series loses a massive amount of appeal. Not just for those going for selection (who may say why bother if is not a selection race, espeically if it the other end of the country), but for everyone (because if the best aren't there it devalues the whole competition). 2011 tried something different. It didn't work. Anyway,I like the idea of reinvigorating things as they originally were, and when we review the 2013 selection policy, I'll certainly back any FCC Final being used, assuming you get the timing right.

As an aside, if anyone is passionate about making these sorts of changes, you really should be applying to join one of the events committees. That is where changes to things like UK Cup, FCC, National O Series etc. have been / are made. Sure, you could go off on your own on this, but I think it would be better if you had British Orienteering's backing. And I know they are currently actively seeking people to sit on the "Event Programme and Publicity Group". Personally I think it is pretty rude that people bitch about BOF, and the people who run the committees and the decisions they make, but when it comes to it you don't make the effort to contribute on the committees that actually decide these things, or formally put forward your thoughts to someone on those committees. Maybe you assume someone else will do it. Well don't assume that. YOU NEED TO VOLUNTEER.

[NeilC]

you make qualification for the final dependant on completeing a number of the previous rounds

Only the top N qualifiers for the final are eligible for prizes, JWOC selection or whatever. They start in the "red block". Others can run the same course and may beat the qualifiers, but because they haven't performed consistently throughout the series no prizes.

[Kitch]

some people prefer JFDI Duncan
and when the idea is right then it will fly and BOF will follow on.

[Kitch]

Only the top N qualifiers for the final are eligible for prizes, JWOC selection or whatever.

Nah - the big performance on the big occasion is what you want to encourage.