Inadvertant cheating on ISSOM

[Gnitworp]

Yes, doesn't red and white tape indicate the opposite: a crossing point?

[graeme]

Does your marshal warn them off before they go any further or just take their bib number and disqualify them?

Send them back round. You really don't want to DQ people. Time lost is a proportionate penalty from going the wrong way round.

(and don't use the wall as a control site!)

[EddieH]

Mrs H is asking a serious question.

I don't like 70plus's answer for reasons I've stated earlier.

Graeme has the right answer Mrs H.

[Mrs H]

Yes that is my inclination as I don't want to dsq anyone and I agree 70plus's answer is not particularly helpful, why swap a really good route choice leg because someone might like to push their luck. Certainly if they are sent back they will loose time but if they get over they will be unfeasibly fast.

I think it would be helpful to build up a consensus of established practise for dealing with situations like this in urban races.

[70plus]

70plus's answer is not particularly helpful, why swap a really good route choice leg because someone might like to push their luck.

I appreciate that we are discussing urban-O, while my comments are based on cross-country - very different. But in any kind of O the map must provide the info necessary to make the best route choice. If that depends on extracting minute detail it may become 'unfair' for those without the best eyesight. After all, they often get enlarged maps.

As far as marshals go, I think they should warn runners not to cross. If they do, DQ. But I still feel this kind of 'trap' leg is a little like snakes & ladders.

[Mrs H]

it's not a trap ! It's not a trick! There is a great big black line round the area which is clearly marked on the map. It' s a challenge to find the best way in - but should someone choose to ignore the black line and scale the 5ft high wall (which I could not physically do but someone of Young Neville's calibre would no doubt find easy) I want to know what to do with them.

[awk]

it's not a trap ! It's not a trick! There is a great big black line round the area which is clearly marked on the map.

Thank you Mrs H. I have become increasingly bemused by the comments here about traps and tricks. Traps and tricks are relevant when you are not given sufficient information to use the navigational tools you have to solve the problem, and there's something a bit 'extra'. I've experienced enough traps and tricks on various MTB based orienteering races to put me off many of them. I've come across very, very few in urban orienteering. Pretty much all the so-called traps and tricks have been perfectly solvable with the use of map, description sheet and compass (and, in my case, magnifier!). I have on occasions been caught out, but that's almost always simply been my failure to use the tools correctly.

In the meantime - the number of times I've not been able to find bingo controls first time, or been scrabbling around in dark green (sometimes at night), or had to deal with dodgy mapping of vegetation or landshape, or rides etc. have been missed off to give unfair advantages.......

[andypat]

Agree entirely with AWK. There's an awful lot of comment on Urban from people who havent experienced it first hand.

[SJC]

but should someone choose to ignore the black line and scale the 5ft high wall (which I could not physically do but someone of Young Neville's calibre would no doubt find easy) I want to know what to do with them.

Disqualify them.

In the other examples here there has been something questionable. Gates open that shouldn't have been; red lines on the map attempting to show that you shouldn't run through the gap in the wall.
If your case is as clear as you describe then there should be no argument against disqualification.

[roadrunner]

Where it gets harder, though, is where you have a forbidden route which doesn't involve crossing a barrier of any type. Look at the map fragment here; there are two routes between the two roads. The northerly one is fine, but the southerly one is very plainly forbidden; however, someone who was lost could potentially follow it without realising they'd gone out of bounds (the whole time you'd be on a paved surface, if I remember this location correctly). What would you do in that case?

Note: I'm not saying that this formed part of any leg at a real event, it's just an example.

[graeme]

Nice example.

Why is it OOB if its an alley open to the public? Understanding this helps to know what to do. My first solution is to ask whoever lives there to remap it in bounds. Second, block out the internal courtyards as per ISSOM to deter deliberate cheats (see below). Anyone who's made an urban map knows the decision to map OOB is pretty arbitrary, but even I tend to err on the side of caution.

Failing that..

If use of the area is dependent on staying out, or if it's by far the quickest route, or if it a race with £5000 prize money, you have to marshal or replan it.

But most likely its not, the odd lost person wandering in wont worry the locals much. I'll assume that, and also that there aren't big fierce keep out signs or big fierce dogs and its an easy mistake to make. (ed: turns out its a Cambridge college, with porters in bowler hats and stuff, but we'll go on pretending the hypotheticals)

Your "cheat" has lost a bit of time not knowing where they are, and gets lucky that they can get through and dont lose as much time as they "should". No permanent harm is done. So basically it's the same effect as following, or asking for help in the forest - happens all the time, people sulk a bit but nothing is done. You should follow the example of your forest colleagues.



Incidently, even if I *were* a cheat I wouldn't go that way - there's no guarantee you can get through. OOB doesn't need to be well mapped (indeed minor detail and internal courtyards should not to be mapped)

[Spookster]

I'd have those four sections of passageway mapped as olive green OOB, to help to avoid any misunderstanding that that route was allowable. And then I'd have a big sign just inside the passageway saying OOB (if it mattered a bit) or a marshall (if it mattered at lot).

[roadrunner]

Nice example.

Why is it OOB if its an alley open to the public? Understanding this helps to know what to do.

Actually, the map's from the Cambridge City Race, and the forbidden route is through part of Trinity College - almost certainly not open to the public (officially at least), and I guess the organisers didn't have permission to use it. There were similar examples elsewhere on the map, where colleges had clearly given permission for only specific parts to be used; in some cases, these were open to tour groups (who were presumably paying for the privilege).

I agree with the idea of showing the passthroughs as OOB in a case like this; it certainly makes things clearer. There's obviously little point is showing as permitted something that leads nowhere, except of course if it's a potential control site.

[AndyO]

Agree entirely with AWK. There's an awful lot of comment on Urban from people who havent experienced it first hand.

Yeah, mate, you made a flippant comment to an earlier post of mine on this thread. I haven't detracted or adversely commented on Urban here or anywhere else, just because of my lack of experience of it. I just noted that if the situation that was being discussed had happened to me, I'd be a bit hacked off. I haven't tried it because I don't fancy running on city streets with my 60 year old joints, I find the extreme map detail and rules on urban maps uninteresting and I am not comfortable with some safety aspects about racing among traffic and shoppers. That is a personal view, but from some of the comment here from people who have tried it, you ain't selling it to me...

[frog]

I think control placing so misreading the map loses you time not saves it is important here. Don't put controls in inner corners/ opposite side of fence railings you can easily punch through (a common urban unintentional "cheat" by novices) and don't mark fences as "uncrossable" unless you either really can't cross them or the landowner has forbidden you to cross them eg people trying to squish through hedges or cross someone's garden.
I think sprint control descriptions should be easy to read as well.
I think every big sprint or urban event will end up having these discussions after it.
It is fun but complicated for novices.
I favour disqualifying as few people as possible.