Another negative topic!

[greywolf]

Because insisting on TD5 would rule out most events in many English regions

[AndyC]

I've just noticed that gg has dropped two places in the rankings -apparently because Murray and MHarky did the City of London Race

[greywolf]

I've just noticed that gg has dropped two places in the rankings -apparently because Murray and MHarky did the City of London Race

Or was it because GG has just lost some very good scores? Park World Tour??
CoL race definitely gave Mharky a boost, but is only Murray's 4th best - he'd almost certainly be above GG in the list even if he hadn't gone to London - he'd only need a 1285 from somewhere..

[rocky]

I think GG had a big score from last year's CoL race which has dropped out.

Since Matt is about to move to Australia can we just kick him off the ranking list now?

More interesting is the leading "lady". Who would've thought a 47 year old would be so far ahead of all our elites?

[andypat]

More interesting is the leading "lady". Who would've thought a 47 year old would be so far ahead of all our elites?

Ha Ha! Well "she" does tend to run in pretty outrageous tights so maybe thats where the confusion has occurred?

(this could be good news for our compassport trophy team)

[ianandmonika]

Just got my 2nd highest ranking points running down on 4.4k green course on a non-technical 1:5000 area about 2 miles from Sheffield City centre - why bother travelling to the British, JK, Scottish, Regional Champs etc when I can climb the rankings on local 'Mickey Mouse' areas!!

[Clive Coles]

Ianandmonica ~ If running down on non-technical areas give you the sense of achievement that's your choice. Ranking can however never be fair to everyone given the diversity of events, terrain and the attendees who happen to turn up (or not) on the day.

Ranking is however something that you could use to motivate yourselves to do better. Step back and think...... Do you really think you are making best use of ranking as a motivational tool by earning high points at micky mouse events ?

[SYO Member]

Clive, you've risen to the bait!

Although I can't speak for Ian, we were both helping at the event having got there early and for me who normally runs Blue, in hot weather and with a fair amount of climb, I also decided to do Green.

It's not a question of 'pot-hunting' for points, it just suited me on the day. However a curious thing happened that may assuage the ranking system doubters.

I did a light-hearted posting here last year relating to the fact that my average ranking points were then around 985 and I kept getting scores very close to that amount.

Nowadays my average is 966.67 (but will change overnight). And what did I get, supposedly running down on Green last Sunday at Wincobank ........ 967!

[Clive Coles]

Yep ~ probably a fair hook but could not resist the worm.

Wasn't meaning to get at anyone in particular ~ certainly not ianandmonica. But they raised the point of being able to score well on Micky Mouse terrain by running down so I added some observations.

It is of course not them or any other event helper, who just manages to scrape a short run after a shift, that are the problem.

We will however always have pot hunters or those who look to build up their personal ranking and self respect by amassing ranking points. They have only to turn up, register on a shorter less technical course, and then if they are any good they will probably win by a margin in excess of 10 minutes. That's their choice, they will get their buzz, but by so doing they will have reduced the point score for all other orienteers on the course who happen to be running their appropriate course for age and ability. Thank's a bunch ~ do come again.

This is where the inaccuracies in ranking points creep in ~ one reason why a National Ranking system can never be a totally fair and accurate assessment of orienteering ability.

The other folk I feel sorry for are the competitors who do an appropriate course and would have scored well but for the fact there were insufficient finishers on the course.

Last Sunday I too was helping at a Ranking event ~ boy.... was it hot. it was tough going even in East Anglia ! I was glad I only had time to fit in a short Green course. Sadly we had a higher than average number of non-finishers and as a result only runners on the Blue and Green actually earned any ranking points. It's the way the system works but for the guys in particular who completed the 1Ok Brown course it's not much of a compensation.

I was on a non-scoring course as well though for me it is of little consequence. For years I have set the standard that most folk can better so I am not crying into my beer. I am not motivated by ranking ~ I have always been amused by being ranked at all.

I had a good day out and enjoyed myself ~ isn't that what matters ?

[greywolf]

more misconceptions

firstly, (almost) everyone does better on familiar areas, regardless of map scale, technicality or event level - i'm a crap orienteer but i can kick ass in the huge highly technical forest at the back of my house

secondly, the "more ranking points for running down" effect is nothing to do with the length or technicality of the course, it's because the competitors on those courses are likely to be over-ranked (as a legacy of the way the list was seeded), so "reducing the point score for all other orienteers on the course who happen to be running their appropriate course for age and ability" is a good thing...in fact it's essential to improve the ranking list in the long term.

Are there really orienteers who are systematically working the system to improve their rankings? (as opposed to being the occasional beneficiaries of anomalous scores) Care to identify them?


PS if you really want to win by a huge margin I'd suggest the Green course on a rough tough technical Highland area

[Clive Coles]

I make observations Greywolf ~ I not intend to make targeted personal accusations. Subject closed

[awk]

That's their choice, they will get their buzz, but by so doing they will have reduced the point score for all other orienteers on the course who happen to be running their appropriate course for age and ability. Thank's a bunch ~ do come again.

I may be wrong myself, but surely this is, at least in principle, completely wrong? Aside from the possible legacy effect described by Greywolf, surely this negative effect on scores will only occur if the fast orienteer runs better than s/he would normally do relative to the others on the course? If they run as they normally would, they would have a neutral effect, and if they ran worse than normal, then they would have a positive effect (quite easy to do when an X minute mistake will have a commensurately greater effect on a shorter course). And on a Green course, normally one of the most heavily populated courses, surely the performance of any one individual will be fairly limited anyway??

[graeme]

I may be wrong myself,

You aren't wrong. Others are. Nothing personal, just facts.

[Clive Coles]

Having said "subject closed" I'm back. Well having two Gods challenging my observation I thought I had better go back and check the results that prompted my original comment in the first place.

My view was developed from a post race huddle at a recent regional league ranking event. I need not name names ~ suffice to say it was an experienced M21 who chose to run green rather than a brown. Needless to say he won the green by a considerable margin. Other disgruntled green runners were muttering " there goes my ranking points". They had a grumble and no doubt fealt the better for that.

But I should have checked the facts before repeating mutterings. Now the ranking lists are updated on the BOF website I can see the ranking points that were actually awarded. The M21 scored well, though in fact not well enough to displace his other top results for the season. The person who on the day appeared to have come in a poor second actually matched the points earned at the previous outing. So I stand corrected ~ the perceptions are proven not to be true. Running down has not significantly reduced the points score of others.

I hope the God's have powers of absolution ~ I'm in a pit, better stop digging.

[SeanC]

Other disgruntled green runners were muttering " there goes my ranking points". They had a grumble and no doubt fealt the better for that.

See - this is not another negative topic after all. People seem to care about their scores so it's making them go orienteering more.

If I was a fast M21 I might be tempted to run green just to get people talking to each other.